Lack stories Female to Male?

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Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby usabuster » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:10 pm

Are their unbirths stories that have a female transgender to a male? If so where?
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby MotherOfMonsters » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:39 pm

I can't think of anything i've seen, though this would be interesting so i'd like to clarify - are you looking for unbirth done by a female-to-male person, as opposed to a story where they are unbirthed, or someone is transformed from female-to-male through unbirth?
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby usabuster » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:11 pm

I am looking for transformed idea as stories like James and Sally By Groblek.
http://aryion.com/g4/view/160333
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby symbiote01 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:21 am

I haven't seen any examples of this that I can recall. There are stories out there where an unbirthed female turns into a hermaphrodite- though that most often involves a hermaphrodite to begin with.

I can see story potential in this... after some virus/apocalypse kills/sterilizes all the men, a lone woman/group of women sacrifice their womanhood to undergo whatever transformation needed to ensure that human life continues. The process, which involves unbirth, changes them forever into men, and they are put to stud for the rest of their lives.

OR

Mistress Witch wants a man-toy, but only has female servants. No problem! A quick spell, and one servant is shoved into another's oven and left to bake for a few days. Presto! Instant man! Only... this man is technically gay, because the (straight) woman she transformed only liked men. Now it's a quest to find a homosexual/bisexual woman to turn into a heterosexual/bisexual man! On second thought, this thought strikes controversy at every step. Forget I mentioned it.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Beheader205 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:23 am

So you basically want a gender bender unbirth story, but with a female becoming a male instead of a male becoming a female? :P
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby usabuster » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:42 am

Beheader205 wrote:So you basically want a gender bender unbirth story, but with a female becoming a male instead of a male becoming a female? :P

You got that right. :D
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby usabuster » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:58 am

symbiote01 wrote:I haven't seen any examples of this that I can recall. There are stories out there where an unbirthed female turns into a hermaphrodite- though that most often involves a hermaphrodite to begin with.

I can see story potential in this... after some virus/apocalypse kills/sterilizes all the men, a lone woman/group of women sacrifice their womanhood to undergo whatever transformation needed to ensure that human life continues. The process, which involves unbirth, changes them forever into men, and they are put to stud for the rest of their lives.

OR

Mistress Witch wants a man-toy, but only has female servants. No problem! A quick spell, and one servant is shoved into another's oven and left to bake for a few days. Presto! Instant man! Only... this man is technically gay, because the (straight) woman she transformed only liked men. Now it's a quest to find a homosexual/bisexual woman to turn into a heterosexual/bisexual man! On second thought, this thought strikes controversy at every step. Forget I mentioned it.

Both of your ideas are grate!. I do like them both it's just I wish I can write a story with my ideas too but my grammar is a problem.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Groblek » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:26 am

usabuster wrote:Both of your ideas are grate!. I do like them both it's just I wish I can write a story with my ideas too but my grammar is a problem.


If grammar's the major problem keeping you from writing stories of your own, send me a draft at [email protected] and I'd be willing to be your editor for grammar and other issues. I'm trying to encourage more UB authors to start writing, and enjoy playing editor, so I'd be glad to help.

Hmm, I tend towards male->female transformations when I do a gender transformation via unbirth because it's easier to justify biologically. A female->male one will require a DNA source from outside mother and new child. Still, now that I'm thinking about it, I'll see if that makes it into one of my stories. No promises though, I don't have any currently in progress that lend themselves to that sort of thing, so I know it's not going to happen soon.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Beheader205 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:22 pm

I still need to write an unbirth story xD just been so lazy to do so.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby symbiote01 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:42 am

Groblek wrote:
usabuster wrote:Hmm, I tend towards male->female transformations when I do a gender transformation via unbirth because it's easier to justify biologically. A female->male one will require a DNA source from outside mother and new child. Still, now that I'm thinking about it, I'll see if that makes it into one of my stories. No promises though, I don't have any currently in progress that lend themselves to that sort of thing, so I know it's not going to happen soon.

Holy cow I'm necro-ing this one hard-core, but I have a response to this that I didn't catch when it was new. (less than a year ago, though not by much)
[super-simplified version]
A female's DNA is 23 pairs of chromosomes, each arranged XX (the X can have over 2000 genes in its makeup). A male's DNA is the same but one pair is XY (the Y has missing information- only about 86 genes). To change a female into a male is easy- males have one fewer 'rib' and a lot less genetic information.

The opposite, male to female, requires an external DNA source to provide that extra information. In an unbirthing, a female host could reasonably supply the missing information.

Now, with normal pregnancy, the female provides 23 genes and the males provide the other 23 (to make 23 pairs, see). To say that a female/female pairing could never produce a male is simply wrong- the transformation into a male involves fewer genes, not more. With proper gene splicing a single woman could be implanted with her own DNA to produce a male OR a female offspring that contained only her genetics.

It doesn't work the other way around (for males). Yes, the genetic codes for sperm involve 22 strands can be mix-matched from the available pairs, but for that last strand, it's either a full chain or a half chain (half mix-match with no other half, or half mix-match with a repeated 1:1 other half). If you took two samples of male sperm and took the longer strand from each of them, you still fall short- 86 genes as opposed to over 2000 required. Two males could not produce a female.

Though there is an interesting tidbit I didn't know about until recently- men have a mostly unformed proto-uterus called the vesicula prostatica located near the prostate. It is thought to be used during ejaculation but is otherwise vestigial. It has been linked to incidents of an enlarged prostate, leading some to suggest that foods (like soybeans) and drugs that promote 'feminine growth' might be partially responsible in conjunction with this organ. This organ never develops because the genetic code to 'unlock' it aren't present.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Groblek » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:56 pm

Symbiote - not quite, I'm afraid. You've made me go back and read up on human genetics, as it's been years since I took those classes. I got my degree in genetics, but then went to mostly work on plants. ;)

The small number of genes on the Y chromosome isn't just a subset of the ones on the X chromosome, there are also a small number of *unique* genes which are critical to male development. Those couldn't be derived from an X chromosome, which is why a female-to-male transformation would require a Y chromosome to come from somewhere outside the unbirther and her daughter. (Unless one of the woman has kleinfelter's syndrome, which would make her XXY, or another of the even less common weird genetic variants we can get).

If you've got the background to understand it and want to read up on the evolution of the Y chromosome, this is a fascinating article on the subject. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 01722.html

Two males could actually theoretically produce a female offspring, presuming a surrogate womb for the fetus to develop, but they can't do it from just sperm samples. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that sperm don't ever carry a full copy of an X chromosome, but that's incorrect - a woman's second X chromosome comes from her father's sperm. Assuming the ability to sort sperm by whether they contain an X or Y chromosome, you could take a sperm containing an X Chromosome from each of two men and have enough DNA to produce the full 22 autosomes + XX pair. What you wouldn't have is the mitochondrial DNA, which is exclusively passed down in an woman's ova. To produce a fully functioning human from just male DNA, you'd have to be able to convert a somatic cell (non-reproductive) into an egg, keeping the mitochondria inherited from his mother, and insert the new chromosomes.

In an unbirthing, to convert a male into a female, the host could either donate one of her X chromosomes, or duplicate the male's existing X chromosome. She's have to redo the methylation pattern that way, but it would theoretically work. This is all well beyond any existing tech, of course, but once we allow actual unbirthing, none of the rest of this seems very extreme. ;)

While I haven't found a lot of detail on the vesicula prostata, it's most likely not that the code to "unlock" it isn't present, but that the expression of those genes at the right time in development is prevented by some of the other genes and gene products which tell the body to develop as a male instead of female. We've all got a lot of genes that are present but don't express themselves for one reason or another.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Sideromelane » Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:17 pm

Groblek wrote:Symbiote - not quite, I'm afraid. You've made me go back and read up on human genetics, as it's been years since I took those classes. I got my degree in genetics, but then went to mostly work on plants. ;)

The small number of genes on the Y chromosome isn't just a subset of the ones on the X chromosome, there are also a small number of *unique* genes which are critical to male development. Those couldn't be derived from an X chromosome, which is why a female-to-male transformation would require a Y chromosome to come from somewhere outside the unbirther and her daughter. (Unless one of the woman has kleinfelter's syndrome, which would make her XXY, or another of the even less common weird genetic variants we can get).

If you've got the background to understand it and want to read up on the evolution of the Y chromosome, this is a fascinating article on the subject. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 01722.html

Two males could actually theoretically produce a female offspring, presuming a surrogate womb for the fetus to develop, but they can't do it from just sperm samples. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that sperm don't ever carry a full copy of an X chromosome, but that's incorrect - a woman's second X chromosome comes from her father's sperm. Assuming the ability to sort sperm by whether they contain an X or Y chromosome, you could take a sperm containing an X Chromosome from each of two men and have enough DNA to produce the full 22 autosomes + XX pair. What you wouldn't have is the mitochondrial DNA, which is exclusively passed down in an woman's ova. To produce a fully functioning human from just male DNA, you'd have to be able to convert a somatic cell (non-reproductive) into an egg, keeping the mitochondria inherited from his mother, and insert the new chromosomes.

In an unbirthing, to convert a male into a female, the host could either donate one of her X chromosomes, or duplicate the male's existing X chromosome. She's have to redo the methylation pattern that way, but it would theoretically work. This is all well beyond any existing tech, of course, but once we allow actual unbirthing, none of the rest of this seems very extreme. ;)

While I haven't found a lot of detail on the vesicula prostata, it's most likely not that the code to "unlock" it isn't present, but that the expression of those genes at the right time in development is prevented by some of the other genes and gene products which tell the body to develop as a male instead of female. We've all got a lot of genes that are present but don't express themselves for one reason or another.


I also always understood that if you really wanted to reproduce (In a Sci-Fi sense, colonising a new world with clones for example, or re-creating the human species after a plague etc) without one of the sexes, you would NEED to use Males anyway, because a single Male cell contains the information needed to re-create BOTH sexes. Which is why I find stories about how females wipe out all the 'useless' males and all live happily ever after amusing. Species extinction would follow rapidly.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Groblek » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:28 am

Actually, that depends on the tech level. Currently, we can take an ova from one woman and put in new DNA and get a viable embryo, (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic ... r_transfer), and we're really close to being able to produce an embryo from fusing the cells of two women. None of these have been brought to term yet, but we're a lot closer to the tech that would let two women reproduce than we are to having an artificial womb, which would be necessary to recreate the species from just males. So no, even right now, wiping out all the males wouldn't necessarily make the species extinct, but wiping out all the females would.
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Re: Lack stories Female to Male?

Postby Neoninja » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:13 pm

Groblek wrote:Symbiote - not quite, I'm afraid. You've made me go back and read up on human genetics, as it's been years since I took those classes. I got my degree in genetics, but then went to mostly work on plants. ;)

The small number of genes on the Y chromosome isn't just a subset of the ones on the X chromosome, there are also a small number of *unique* genes which are critical to male development. Those couldn't be derived from an X chromosome, which is why a female-to-male transformation would require a Y chromosome to come from somewhere outside the unbirther and her daughter. (Unless one of the woman has kleinfelter's syndrome, which would make her XXY, or another of the even less common weird genetic variants we can get).

If you've got the background to understand it and want to read up on the evolution of the Y chromosome, this is a fascinating article on the subject. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 01722.html

Two males could actually theoretically produce a female offspring, presuming a surrogate womb for the fetus to develop, but they can't do it from just sperm samples. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that sperm don't ever carry a full copy of an X chromosome, but that's incorrect - a woman's second X chromosome comes from her father's sperm. Assuming the ability to sort sperm by whether they contain an X or Y chromosome, you could take a sperm containing an X Chromosome from each of two men and have enough DNA to produce the full 22 autosomes + XX pair. What you wouldn't have is the mitochondrial DNA, which is exclusively passed down in an woman's ova. To produce a fully functioning human from just male DNA, you'd have to be able to convert a somatic cell (non-reproductive) into an egg, keeping the mitochondria inherited from his mother, and insert the new chromosomes.

In an unbirthing, to convert a male into a female, the host could either donate one of her X chromosomes, or duplicate the male's existing X chromosome. She's have to redo the methylation pattern that way, but it would theoretically work. This is all well beyond any existing tech, of course, but once we allow actual unbirthing, none of the rest of this seems very extreme. ;)

While I haven't found a lot of detail on the vesicula prostata, it's most likely not that the code to "unlock" it isn't present, but that the expression of those genes at the right time in development is prevented by some of the other genes and gene products which tell the body to develop as a male instead of female. We've all got a lot of genes that are present but don't express themselves for one reason or another.

Reminds me heavily of something I saw on a trans-thread once regarding surrogate and children.
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