Less and less Felarya stories/writers

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Re: Less and less Felarya stories/writers

Postby EnderDracolich » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:25 pm

C107galaxytachyon wrote:Uh....... excuse me? Did you not see my prior post, or was my additional discourse there completely unwarranted? I’d really appreciate just “some” level of acknowledgement here, derisive or not.


I'm sorry for not acknowledging your post.

I'm not trying to be uncivil.

I simply... don't have much to say, to be honest.

Um...

I'm not terribly familiar with Jakethecardsculptor or with his/her stories. I know very little about Ayralef.

There are lots and lots of Felarya stories out there, and I don't claim to have read all of them. I'm not entirely sure that would even be possible. There are SO many.

I tend to prefer stories that are solely set in the world of Felarya proper, so stuff like World War Ayralef (which is only tangentially related to the core setting and it's core premise, and which involves a world other than Felarya) don't really appeal to me.

I'm not sure why you mentioned it.

Does Jakethecardsculptor kill a key protagonist in his stories? If so, I suppose that's another example, but I hardly think it demonstrates a tend or norm within the community.

Of course FrenchSnack is not literally the only person to ever do so. There are hundreds of authors in the Felarya community.

I can only speak from my own experience, and can only talk about the stuff I've actually personally read.
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Re: Less and less Felarya stories/writers

Postby MrMetroid » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:16 pm

Response is gonna be a bit... long ^^;
EnderDracolich wrote:Well, as a reader. I gotta give my 2 cents. (I'm also a writer, and I am a member of the Felarya community - but I'm taking a stand in defense of a reader's right to enjoy a story without an unpleasant twist)

I just went and read that story for the first time (wasn't in the Felarya community when it was written), and it was VERY out of tone with Felarya. If I had been a fan of Calina and had read that, as a canon story, when it came out... I would have left the Felaya community AND the Vore community entirely.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that sentence even just on premise - 'cause what makes an "unpleasant twist" in the first place is wholly subjective; ya can't really "take a stand" for something that dependent on context from both the kind of story/setting used and the individual person-to-person basis of the reader themselves. ^^;

I kinda feel this view's an overreaction - for me, it's the total opposite. The vore scene wasn't any different from others; the pred's enjoyment of it wasn't any different; the slice-of-life scenes weren't any different - literally the only thing different was that it's a character we knew getting eaten - and not even a protagonist at that; just a popular side-character. I could get not liking them dying or being sad about it, but to say it was "VERY out of tone with Felarya" is an exaggeration, IMHO.

EnderDracolich wrote:Some people don't like their beloved protagonists being killed - regardless of it's merits as a form of storytelling - and those people shouldn't be derided. They should be allowed to have spaces and stories that they can enjoy without the fear of having to deal with that kind of stress... and Felarya should be such a space. With a handful of (generally disliked) exceptions, protags don't die in Felarya.

I can see why it would cause people to get upset, and why it would fracture the community.[/code]

But that right there's the problem; by all accounts THEY were the ones deriding FS, not the ones being derided. And in all fairness, I think that line of thought's a tad... well, frankly put, it sounds entitled. Felarya's a bloody jungle - law of the jungle stuff happens; random crap happens; bad luck happens. To say it shouldn't purely on the basis of "it should be my perfect fantasy world" is IMHO kinda disrespectful to both the setting and the writers in it - and to expect every single story to go perfectly the way you want it is the same as not having an entertaining story in the first place, if it never takes any risks or turns. That protags usually don't die in Felarya (and Calina argubaly wasn't one in the first place) doesn't equate to that being a law, nor should it IMHO.

I don't get why it'd fracture the community THIS way. I could get people being sad or disheartened, but people were straight-up calling FS a bad writer for it - some even personally insulting his capacity for writing. He didn't change the story 'cause it was disliked - he changed it 'cause the conflict around it got so toxic that he basically had an emotional breakdown in one of his journals. IMHO, this self-imposed "protags don't die in Felarya" rule isn't worth doing that to someone, especially not a guy who helped build the place.

EnderDracolich wrote:Felarya is not built around protagonist deaths, nor is it built around shock, horror, or tragedy. So... inserting that kinda content into a Felarya story is gonna have a pretty easily predictable result.

It's like... slipping ghost peppers into somebody's ice cream; if you like spicy food, that might be great, but if you're looking for a sweet treat and get it by surprise, it's gonna be terribly painful and upsetting.

The irony with that, though, is it kinda feels the total opposite; if anything, Felarya stories are built ENTIRELY around "protagonist deaths" and around "shock, horror or tragedy" - 'cause those are the perspectives of the characters the readers follow. 9 out of 10 times, the story's protagonist is someone who's gonna get eaten - especially in FS' stories, as the "Lost in Felarya" series proved - and we're taken step-by-step through their feelings of shock, horror and tragedy. Literally the only thing different in Wem's that it wasn't some random one-off. Felarya was never guaranteed to just be "a sweet treat" to begin with - and if you have the same thing over and over in the first place, you'll get board of it. It's both a false expectation and an unfair burden on the maker to blame them for it, much less hit them with the kind of insults I saw in those comments.

EnderDracolich wrote:To me, it seems unfair to point fingers at the readers, and say they're responsible for scaring writers into not writing.

The actual writing of that story was equally inadvisable. It doesn't fit the tone of Felarya at all.

Putting aside how mistaken I think that is, it's still unfair to demonize and harass the writer for it - like I said before, it wasn't that people didn't like the story that made him change it; it's that he and others were getting personally attacked, over something he'd done dozens of times with other characters. If you don't like stories where protags have untouchable plot-armor, that's fine - but don't insult people for it. And again, I just can't agree with claiming the tone was different - literally the only thing different was that it's a character we actually knew getting eaten, and that alone ain't enough to justify what happened. Hell, I'd go so far as to say the TOTAL OPPOSITE - that what set people off was Calina dying in a way no tonally different than others, rather than the tone having "changed".

EnderDracolich wrote:So... yeah. If that story and the aftermath had a dampening effect on writing in the community, all parties involved are equally culpable.

Frankly, if you intend to write a story, in an established setting, that deviates strongly from the tone of the setting... just don't. Go write your own setting, and make it clear to potential readers that shocking content might happen. Don't subvert something that already exists, and which other people enjoy.

Your characters are one's own to do with as one wishes... your reader's emotional well-being, however, does not belong to you. You should NEVER intentionally write a work of fiction with the intent to upset and distress your readers by subverting their expectations.

Some people can't handle that kinda stuff very well. Myself included.

Again, that's the problem though; the tone DIDN'T deviate from the setting - at all. Out of the few who stayed civil, they expressed more discontent that Calina died as if she was a nobody rather than that she died at all - to say he'd "subvert something that already exists" feels like misjudging it since, IMHO, it's not in fact what he wrote but rather who was in it.

IMHO, the writer ISN'T responsible for the reader's "emotional well-being" - you can't always predict that kinda shit, dude, much less be accountable for it. If every writer everywhere was directly responsible for every single reader's emotional state after the fact, fiction in general would not exist because there would always be SOMEONE out there who might have been impacted by it negatively. It's the reader's own prerogative what they think and their own feelings that dictate what they feel from it, not the writer's - and whatever they feel, they should never act like it's the writers fault for it. Especially since FS admitted in comments & journals that they didn't even intend distress in the first place - what happened to Calina was basically a result of an over-trusting Milly befriending someone she probably shouldn't with bad consequences.


EnderDracolich wrote:I write sad shit. Writing sad shit is fine. But it should be labelled, not wrapped in happy, colorful, lighthearted packaging.

And I think that line of thought's misguided when it comes to Felarya - because IMHO, it never had just a "happy, colorful, lighthearted packaging" in the first place; most stories I've seen in it take place from the PREY, not the pred, and as a result the tales are rarely ever "happy, colorful" or "lighthearted" for anyone outside the preds.


EnderDracolich wrote:EDIT:

To be clear, I'm not pointing fingers at French Snack.

It's quite clear that hurting people's feeling wasn't his intention with that story.

Perhaps he should have known better, but it was an honest mistake.

But an honest, harmful mistake is still harmful, and it's not fair to point fingers at the readers and say "they acted badly" when the content itself was legitimately shocking and out of tone with the setting.

All parties, perhaps even the community as a whole, are equally culpable.

Not - just - the readers and their reaction.

This block is something I agree with in premise, but not for the reasons you state. Whether we personally think of what FS wrote or what we perceive Felarya should be, fact of the matter's that it's not a view-disagreement that caused the fracture - it was the behavior, the people stooping to flat-out insults and harassment that were the issue. On that front, you CAN kinda point fingers at the readers even just with a cursory glance at the comment sections - if they'd simply disagreed with it, I doubt there'd have been an issue... but the problem's that they didn't.
Last edited by MrMetroid on Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Less and less Felarya stories/writers

Postby C107galaxytachyon » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:03 pm

MrMetroid wrote:Response is gonna be a bit... long ^^;
EnderDracolich wrote:Well, as a reader. I gotta give my 2 cents. (I'm also a writer, and I am a member of the Felarya community - but I'm taking a stand in defense of a reader's right to enjoy a story without an unpleasant twist)

I just went and read that story for the first time (wasn't in the Felarya community when it was written), and it was VERY out of tone with Felarya. If I had been a fan of Calina and had read that, as a canon story, when it came out... I would have left the Felaya community AND the Vore community entirely.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that sentence even just on premise - 'cause what makes an "unpleasant twist" in the first place is wholly subjective; ya can't really "take a stand" for something that dependent on context from both the kind of story/setting used and the individual person-to-person basis of the reader themselves. ^^;

I kinda feel this view's an overreaction - for me, it's the total opposite. The vore scene wasn't any different from others; the pred's enjoyment of it wasn't any different; the slice-of-life scenes weren't any different - literally the only thing different was that it's a character we knew getting eaten - and not even a protagonist at that; just a popular side-character. I could get not liking them dying or being sad about it, but to say it was "VERY out of tone with Felarya" is an exaggeration, IMHO.

EnderDracolich wrote:Some people don't like their beloved protagonists being killed - regardless of it's merits as a form of storytelling - and those people shouldn't be derided. They should be allowed to have spaces and stories that they can enjoy without the fear of having to deal with that kind of stress... and Felarya should be such a space. With a handful of (generally disliked) exceptions, protags don't die in Felarya.

I can see why it would cause people to get upset, and why it would fracture the community.[/code]

But that right there's the problem; by all accounts THEY were the ones deriding FS, not the ones being derided. And in all fairness, I think that line of thought's a tad... well, frankly put, it sounds entitled. Felarya's a bloody jungle - law of the jungle stuff happens; random crap happens; bad luck happens. To say it shouldn't purely on the basis of "it should be my perfect fantasy world" is IMHO kinda disrespectful to both the setting and the writers in it - and to expect every single story to go perfectly the way you want it is the same as not having an entertaining story in the first place, if it never takes any risks or turns. That protags usually don't die in Felarya (and Calina argubaly wasn't one in the first place) doesn't equate to that being a law, nor should it IMHO.

I don't why it'd fracture the community THIS way. I could get people just being sad or disheartened by it, but there were people straight-up calling FS a bad writer for it - some of them even personally insulting his capacity for writing. He didn't change the story because it was disliked - he changed it because the conflict around it got so vitriolic that he basically had an emotional breakdown in one of his journals. IMHO, this self-imposed "protags don't die in Felarya" rule isn't worth doing that to someone, especially not someone who helped build the place.

EnderDracolich wrote:Felarya is not built around protagonist deaths, nor is it built around shock, horror, or tragedy. So... inserting that kinda content into a Felarya story is gonna have a pretty easily predictable result.

It's like... slipping ghost peppers into somebody's ice cream; if you like spicy food, that might be great, but if you're looking for a sweet treat and get it by surprise, it's gonna be terribly painful and upsetting.

The irony with that, though... is that it actually kinda feels like the total opposite; if anything, Felarya stories are built ENTIRELY around "protagonist deaths" and around "shock, horror or tragedy" - cause those are the perspectives of the characters the readers follow. 9 out of 10 times, the protagonist of the story is someone who's gonna get eaten - especially in FS' stories, as the "Lost in Felarya" series proved - and we're taken step-by-step through their feelings of shock, horror and tragedy. Literally the only thing different is that it wasn't some random one-off. Felarya was never guaranteed to just be "a sweet treat" to begin with - and if you have the same thing over and over in the first place, you'll get board of it at some point. It's both a false expectation and an unfair burden on the maker to blame them for it, much less hit them with the kind of insults I saw in those comments.

EnderDracolich wrote:To me, it seems unfair to point fingers at the readers, and say they're responsible for scaring writers into not writing.

The actual writing of that story was equally inadvisable. It doesn't fit the tone of Felarya at all.

And on the flip-side of that, it seems unfair to demonize and harass the writer for it - like I said before, it wasn't that people didn't like the story that made him change it; it's that he and others were getting personally attacked over it, over something he'd done dozens of times with other characters. If you don't like stories where protags have untouchable plot-armor, that's fine - but don't insult people for it. Like I said before, I just can't agree with claiming the tone was different - literally the only thing different was that it's a character we actually knew getting eaten... and that alone wasn't enough to justify what happened. Hell, I'd actually go so far as to say it was the TOTAL OPPOSITE - that what set people off was Calina dying in a way no tonally different than others, rather than the tone having changed at all.

EnderDracolich wrote:So... yeah. If that story and the aftermath had a dampening effect on writing in the community, all parties involved are equally culpable.

Frankly, if you intend to write a story, in an established setting, that deviates strongly from the tone of the setting... just don't. Go write your own setting, and make it clear to potential readers that shocking content might happen. Don't subvert something that already exists, and which other people enjoy.

Your characters are one's own to do with as one wishes... your reader's emotional well-being, however, does not belong to you. You should NEVER intentionally write a work of fiction with the intent to upset and distress your readers by subverting their expectations.

Some people can't handle that kinda stuff very well. Myself included.

Again, that's the problem though; the tone DIDN'T deviate from the setting - at all. Out of the few who stayed civil, they expressed more discontent that Calina died as if she was a nobody rather than that she died at all - to say he'd "subvert something that already exists" feels like misjudging it since, IMHO, it's not in fact what he wrote but rather who was in it.

IMHO, the writer ISN'T responsible for the reader's "emotional well-being" - you can't always predict that kinda shit, dude, much less be accountable for it. If every writer everywhere was directly responsible for every single reader's emotional state after the fact, fiction in general would not exist because there would always be SOMEONE out there who might have been impacted by it negatively. It's the reader's own prerogative what they think and their own feelings that dictate what they feel from it, not the writer's - and whatever they feel, they should never act like it's the writers fault for it. Especially since FS admitted in comments & journals that they didn't even intend distress in the first place - what happened to Calina was basically a result of an over-trusting Milly persisting in befriending someone she probably shouldn't.


EnderDracolich wrote:I write sad shit. Writing sad shit is fine. But it should be labelled, not wrapped in happy, colorful, lighthearted packaging.

And I think that line of thought's misguided when it comes to Felarya - because IMHO, it never had just a "happy, colorful, lighthearted packaging" in the first place; most stories I've seen in it take place from the PREY, not the pred, and as a result the tales are rarely ever "happy, colorful" or "lighthearted" for anyone outside the preds.



EnderDracolich wrote:EDIT:

To be clear, I'm not pointing fingers at French Snack.

It's quite clear that hurting people's feeling wasn't his intention with that story.

Perhaps he should have known better, but it was an honest mistake.

But an honest, harmful mistake is still harmful, and it's not fair to point fingers at the readers and say "they acted badly" when the content itself was legitimately shocking and out of tone with the setting.

All parties, perhaps even the community as a whole, are equally culpable.

Not - just - the readers and their reaction.

This block is something I agree with in premise, but not for the reasons you state. Whether we personally think of what FS wrote or what we perceive Felarya should be, fact of the matter's that it's not a view-disagreement that caused the fracture - it was the behavior, the people stooping to flat-out insults and harassment that were the issue. On that front, you CAN kinda point fingers at the readers even just with a cursory glance at the comment sections - if they'd simply disagreed with it, I doubt there'd have been an issue... but the problem's that they didn't.


I’m going to guess World War Ayralef isn’t something you’re all that familiar with: given how you seemed to gloss right over my post on the matter.
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Re: Less and less Felarya stories/writers

Postby MrMetroid » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:18 pm

C107galaxytachyon wrote:I’m going to guess World War Ayralef isn’t something you’re all that familiar with: given how you seemed to gloss right over my post on the matter.

A - I'm not even the person you responded to last time ^^;
B - Ayralef, IMHO, is a separate continuity from Felarya; I was trying to stick to "main timeline" stuff to get my point across that what EnderDracolich's talking about isn't different from it's usual tone - only difference was that it happened to a character people knew instead of a "prey of the day" type protag.
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Re: Less and less Felarya stories/writers

Postby C107galaxytachyon » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:41 pm

MrMetroid wrote:
C107galaxytachyon wrote:I’m going to guess World War Ayralef isn’t something you’re all that familiar with: given how you seemed to gloss right over my post on the matter.

A - I'm not even the person you responded to last time ^^;
B - Ayralef, IMHO, is a separate continuity from Felarya; I was trying to stick to "main timeline" stuff to get my point across that what EnderDracolich's talking about isn't different from it's usual tone - only difference was that it happened to a character people knew instead of a "prey of the day" type protag.


Yeah: that’s probably a fair assessment. Still, I can’t help but feel you’re kinda missing the point by excluding Ayralef from this discourse just because its a “separate continuity.” Unless you think vore is more integral to this discussion than the mere act of “killing off” certain characters, then there’s literally no reason to NOT address this.

Besides, it’s not like literally ALL of Felarya’s cast has indulged in such things: you only need look a Lily’s bio for ample evidence of such.
http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lily
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Re: Less and less Felarya stories/writers

Postby MrMetroid » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:23 pm

C107galaxytachyon wrote:Yeah: that’s probably a fair assessment. Still, I can’t help but feel you’re kinda missing the point by excluding Ayralef from this discourse just because its a “separate continuity.” Unless you think vore is more integral to this discussion than the mere act of “killing off” certain characters, then there’s literally no reason to NOT address this.

Besides, it’s not like literally ALL of Felarya’s cast has indulged in such things: you only need look a Lily’s bio for ample evidence of such.
http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lily

It's not a matter of what's integral or not; it's that I think these continuities have two separate norms. One arguably focuses more on factional/conflict drama and political intrigue - kinda like Game of Thrones - while the other focuses more on a mix of slice-of-life, exploration and law of the jungle survival. Hence I don't count them as the same thing - they're unique and distinct enough from each-other to be their own things, I think.

I'm not saying characters similar to ones from each-other's settings can't be here; I'm just saying they're more the exception than the rule. And it's not even the rule that's being discussed - this was about how killing main characters and serious themes in Felarya stories wasn't as uncommon in Felarya as EnderDracolich seemed to think, much less as utterly alien as they argued it to be.
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