Eka's portal etiquette

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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Jidane » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:08 pm

Deathworks wrote:And while I am at it, as far as I know, unless you make a contract that states otherwise, the copyright of a commissioned work lies solely by the person commissioning it. In other words, the artist does not have the copyright for the work.


I looked that up and I have to say, it's actually the other way round.

Copied from a Copyright for Artists website:
Question: If Someone Commissions Me to Do a Painting, Who Does Copyright Belong To?
Answer: Unless you expressly sign over copyright to the person who's commissioned the painting or it was done as work for hire, copyright remains yours. Owning the actual painting is not the same as owning copyright and reproduction rights in the painting.


So if you are a freenlancer, copyright on the picture is yours. If you're working in a company as an artist, copyright belongs to the company (that's the "work for hire" thing). No matter if someone commissions a freelancer or a company, the commissioner doesn't own the copyright on the work, except you make a contract with them which states otherwise.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby John » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:30 pm

eatmeplease wrote:I feel a request section would be somewhat useful, actually. People could post requests, and artists could browse the request area and see if anything catches their fancy to draw/write/whatever. Is there a particular reason that this is a bad idea? If so, I'm curious to know why.


The problem with a request section is that there would be a large number of people posting endlessly for free art/writing. That would also attract more of the same people that post negative comments, demand endlessly of artists and insult them. Creation of such a forum would make some of those very people feel like the site endorses such as they take everything a step too far.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby X » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:39 pm

Perhaps a type of filter?

No, not really sure where I'm going with this. But, bear with me. Why don't artists leave a disclaimer somewhere, and, if serious about a commission to include "X words or X phrase" (all self advertisement aside) in the message. No x, no read. People can be just as inane as bots, but can be deleted just as easily.

As for anything else....you're better off just ignoring commentary. Good, or bad. Not that there's anything wrong with good comments, but the bad comments tend to sting worse if you're used to being given high marks, especially if they are Barrens chat inducingly retarded.

Point for point, this is the internet. The id and ego tend to run unchecked due to anonyminity. There's always some good egos around, but the ids can easily make their presence felt. So....I really can't give you a 100% solution. Shits always going to be crazy up in this hizzouse. Ok, forget I said that.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Deathworks » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:40 pm

Hi!

Jidane: Thanks for clarifying that. I figured commissions were works for hire and thus placed them there.

X: Frankly, I think your suggestion about comments is awful. Comments are a form of communication and part of what makes this community. They strengthen the link between the artist and the audience, the audience and the art, and the art and the artist. They are a chance to chatter away, to make fun, to find new inspiration. What you suggest is basically turning this community into another mass uploader, at least as far as the artists are concerned. You also make defending your rights somewhat mute as you effectively say that artists should no longer care about what happens to their art. After all, if you are ignoring all comments and feedback, what link is there between you and your art? It is as if you told a mother to hand over her child over to society after birth and never think about it anymore and never check on it.

Proper comments have many, many useful functions. For all artists, they can include advice on how to improve (how to fix things with perspective in drawing, or how to smoothly integrate descriptions in writing). Especially for stories, they can also help find misses where the author had a clear vision in their mind but did not make it explicit enough in their writing - those are difficult to catch all by yourself as your superior background knowledge interferes with your perception all too easily. Most artists I know also often have doubts about their skills or at least about whether their art is really any good - thus, positive comments can help them find those doubts and get new energy. Others have certain aims that require that feedback to be fulfilled (expressing gratitude towards the community, improving yourself, having your characters loved by others, ...)

Thus, I think that this is not the way to go.

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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Silhouette » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:47 am

Hooray for morals~ I'll probably comment on specifics, later.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby shy_loner » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:14 am

This is something that makes me very comfortable, being relatively new to the site and extremely new and nervous about being open with others about vore, i have been lurking for a while but i have many writings i have been waiting to get out...its threads like these that make me feel like i can post my stories without fear.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Eka » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:55 am

shy_loner wrote:This is something that makes me very comfortable, being relatively new to the site and extremely new and nervous about being open with others about vore, i have been lurking for a while but i have many writings i have been waiting to get out...its threads like these that make me feel like i can post my stories without fear.


Welcome, and let's see if we can make it comforting enough to get some of them back too.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby htfcuddles » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:23 am

I have several art pieces and I havent been harrased by random requesters or rude people even with the fact that I always was open for free requests.
Will this mean that I'm not very great and due to that I don't have other's attention? xD

Uhm, well, in part is my fault for not uploading lots of things lately. In any case, definitely I need to improve moar >.>
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Nerva » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:33 am

D-T wrote:Uhm, well, in part is my fault for not uploading lots of things lately. In any case, definitely I need to improve moar >.>

Just so you know, you should never feel "at fault" for uploading, or not uploading, anything. Do your work at your own pace, with the deadlines you set for yourself. If you haven't been harassed, then that's good. The intent of this thread is to ensure that you never are.

Being harassed by requesters isn't really a compliment, or a sign of greatness; it's a sign that the requesters have no respect for you, and see you as nothing more than "their art-bitch" - if you'll excuse my choice of terms.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby htfcuddles » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:06 pm

Nerva wrote:
D-T wrote:Uhm, well, in part is my fault for not uploading lots of things lately. In any case, definitely I need to improve moar >.>

Just so you know, you should never feel "at fault" for uploading, or not uploading, anything. Do your work at your own pace, with the deadlines you set for yourself. If you haven't been harassed, then that's good. The intent of this thread is to ensure that you never are.

Being harassed by requesters isn't really a compliment, or a sign of greatness; it's a sign that the requesters have no respect for you, and see you as nothing more than "their art-bitch" - if you'll excuse my choice of terms.


I know, is not a fault, just saying.
In any case, I can discuss a bit in the other part of the post. Yes, being harrassed never was good, and I agree. But the point I'm trying to hit is, if harrassers focused on you or attacked you, is because you're kinda known. And for being known, is because you grabbed audience's attention in one way or another. In the artistic world, probably was due to nice/beautiful art.

I see it in this way:
Beautiful art --- (attracts) ---> Wanted audience ---(that comes with)---> Unwanted audience ---(that leads to)---> Harrassment.

I never said that being harrassed is good. I was just pointing the fact that if I never was in the eyes of audience, probably is because my art doesn't attracts so much, if you get the idea.

And no, I'm not saying that my art sucks or anything. Just saying that I need to improve for making more people wanting to see what I do.
Unwanted attention is obvious when you have a wide audience, and... it could be a reason why lots of artists have a 4chan-troll-wannabe personality. For getting rid of trolls acting like them.
In any case, this could be discussed in another thread if anybody wants.

Returning to the original objective of this thread, I think that this thread is great, is something that was needed. If people doesn't have the clear rules, will never know where to stop... and in a place filled with artists, where we are known for being maniatics -all artists are xD- that could be fatal.
I'd highly suggest to write a text with the full rules (the ones in the original page on Eka and the guidelines here) and to force newcomers to read them before registering. All serious websites -and even some oekaki boards- do this.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Jidane » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:50 pm

D-T wrote:I'd highly suggest to write a text with the full rules (the ones in the original page on Eka and the guidelines here) and to force newcomers to read them before registering. All serious websites -and even some oekaki boards- do this.


And after every patch WoW pops a window with User Agreements and stuff. You scroll it down and click AGREE and you're good to go. Questions is:How many really read through it and how many just scroll down so they can click the button?

There's a lot of websites (or like my example, online games) that kinda drop the TOS and other rules right before you feet and you're supposed to dig through it before you can enter. In most cases you just gotta scroll all the way down to the bottom to unlock the ENTER/AGREE button, but there's a lot of sites where that isn't even the case and you can just go on with your browsing, no matter if you read the rules or not. You'd somehow have to find a way around it.

I've seen on a few yaoi-themed sites that they placed a fake enter button. Simply clicking on it would lead to a site that would tell you tread the disclaimer. If you actually read it, it would tell you where the actual link to enter the site was hidden.
The problem with that is, if you have a load of rules, it's a lot of text to dig through. I'm not 100% sure, but from my experience on the net, people don't want to read. Well, a lot of the internet users at least. They don't pay attention to artit's comments (you can tell because they ask questions in a comment they wouldn't have to ask if they read the artist's comment) and the lot very likely wouldn't bother to dig through a rule book, even if there is a hidden entrance in there.

The basic idea ain't bad, but you'd have to find a way to do it that doesn't scare new members off, yet is something that makes sure people can't just "cheat" and skip over it.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Nerva » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:54 pm

Jidane wrote:
D-T wrote:I'd highly suggest to write a text with the full rules (the ones in the original page on Eka and the guidelines here) and to force newcomers to read them before registering. All serious websites -and even some oekaki boards- do this.

The basic idea ain't bad, but you'd have to find a way to do it that doesn't scare new members off, yet is something that makes sure people can't just "cheat" and skip over it.

In its existing form, it does serve a purpose. If you ban someone for breaking a rule, they can't claim ignorance; you made every effort to show them the rules and ToS before they joined or got involved. If they ignore it anyway, get involved, and break the rules? It's their fault they got banned, not yours.

To paraphrase Fallout 2: "Ignorance of the Rules is No Excuse: A dumbass will get busted just as fast as a smartass."
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Deathworks » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:01 pm

Hi!

D-T: First of all, I think you are subject to a misconception. Of course, celebrities are more likely to draw stalkers and other questionable people than your Joe Average, but that is more a problem of profile than quality, actually. In order to be hunted down, you need to be very active and gather a crowd. Of course, high quality in your creations increases the chances of getting a crowd, but there is no 1:1 correlation between the two. Just think of those insider tips or that one little known restaurant with the best lasagna in the entire state. High quality things can be famous but they do not need to be, and on the other hand, poor quality things can be famous as well (check the movie hit lists of recent years for details on that).

In addition, you should not forget that we are dealing with a very diverse crowd here indeed, so even if your quality is high, your tastes and thus regular subjects may not captivate many people. So, you may fail to get that big crowd simply because there are not that many people who share your feelings to begin with.

And finally, while there are probably jerks in every subgroup of humanity, the number of jerks may be vary between fan groups, so having 10 devoted fans each, A may have two harassers among those 10, while B has no problems whatsoever. So, I would suggest you should not over-interpret the peaceful life you have and instead enjoy it.

Secondly, I think when you register, you are pointed to the rules in the FAQ. Sure, this could be made more explicit, but I am not quite sure whether that in itself would really help. Case in point, most of the big uploaders where you get all those illegal images and software from actually have in their Terms of Service which you are sometimes presented even if you just visit that site that copyright violations are not accepted - so, people have a rather unfortunate tendency to ignore the TOS when registering/logging in (another example are all the erotic sites on Geocities/Yahoo! which actually also violate their TOS as no adult content is allowed there (^_^;; ). However, I agree that we may want to think about increasing the prominence of such guidelines. But I think that everyday usage is a better target than the registering process.

EDIT: I am with Jidane on this. And Nerva, the moment a link is provided during the registration to the TOS telling you to read them and agree to them before proceeding, you are already legally bound. It is your own fault if you don't read them - you can't simply ignore them and use that ignorance in your defense since they were made readily available to you.

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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby X » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:44 pm

This is such a difficult to cure disease that it's rough to even know where to begin. Look, these ideas are great, but it's an incurable problem. We could toughen every policy, defend the artists, and still there would be douchebaggery that could cripple even the biggest ego after enough hammering.

Perhaps I should revise my position on comments, then. How about this: commentary about the art with actual suggestions are the only comments artists should really listen to?

This is not to say community is a bad thing. In fact, it can be damn beneficial. The portal beats any download network, as a sentient mind can find things outside of tags and search criteria. Where a machine can't go, the human brain can.

Community, however, is the problem. A whitewash would be pointless and accomplish nothing. But, sitting back and letting it happen will probably eventually crumble the portal. Happened in a part to Big Gulp.

So...the best defense for an artist, I would presume, is to ignore personal commentary. Commentary on the art with a legitimate criticism or intelligent praise of the work is all fine and good. However, if someone says something such as "hawt" or "fuck furries", you're better off ignoring it. It doesn't really say anything about the art at all, and it won't help you grow or gain confidence as an artist. Listen to the shepherds, not the sheep. Otherwise, it'll get to you, and another artist leaves because of a bunch of underevolved head on keyboard buffoons.

As for a practical solution other than artist's ignoring the douchebaggery? I'm drawing a blank. Normally, I wouldn't care, but it sucks seeing good artwork disappear from the portal. I wish I could do more. :(
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Nerva » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:52 pm

Deathworks wrote:And Nerva, the moment a link is provided during the registration to the TOS telling you to read them and agree to them before proceeding, you are already legally bound. It is your own fault if you don't read them - you can't simply ignore them and use that ignorance in your defense since they were made readily available to you.

Might want to do a little more research there, Deathworks. Under United States law, the enforceability and validity of ToS/EULA contracts to which you have no access to prior to accepting has been disputed. Depending on what court your contract is held in, a contract which you have no way to review or refuse prior to performing some action that constitutes acceptance under it may be declared unconscionable and thus either void or voidable. Being a standard form-letter contract, they have to take special care to keep from being considered contract of adhesion, which are also potentially voidable if they don't offer an equal bargaining ground between both parties.

Consider reading up on ProCD vs. Zeidenberg, Klocek vs. Gateway, and Specht vs. Netscape for examples of this debate of enforceability.

I agree that you can't simply ignore them and continue on if they're shown to you directly and you have a chance to refuse. However, if their terms state that you're bound from the moment you use the service, regardless of whether or not you've had an opportunity to review and potentially reject the contract first, there's real grounds for voidability there.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Deathworks » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:00 pm

Hi!

Nerva: I think there is a misunderstanding there. I meant that when you register, you are explicitly pointed to the link of the terms of service and told that you have to agree to them. So there is no case of "no prior access" - you are presented the chance to evaluate the contract beforehand. Or how do you argue that they are inaccessible? I am a bit confused about the point you are making.

I don't see how pointing you to the TOS during registration (= making the contract) would be comparable to a contract in a sealed package. The link can be viewed without and prior to finishing the registration process and only upon finishing registration is a contract created.

X: However, that is where the problem starts - if the artists are to filter through the comments, this means they have to read them. After all, not every hate comment etc. has a warning sticker attached to it. So, the emotional impact an attack may have will be developed.

But I agree with you - people should not take the harassers to heart - the harassers are wrong, not you.

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Last edited by Deathworks on Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Nerva » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:05 pm

Deathworks wrote:Nerva: I think there is a misunderstanding there. I meant that when you register, you are explicitly pointed to the link of the terms of service and told that you have to agree to them. So there is no case of "no prior access" - you are presented the chance to evaluate the contract beforehand. Or how do you argue that they are inaccessible? I am a bit confused about the point you are making.

In this case, yeah, there's no grounds for voidability. You're not being held to the agreement before being shown it.

What I was objecting to, was this:
... the moment a link is provided during the registration to the TOS telling you to read them and agree to them before proceeding, you are already legally bound.

Just providing a link during registration doesn't immediately legally bind someone. They have to actually agree and proceed with registration to be bound. Otherwise, that counts as refusal of contract. If you attempt to hold a person to the contract anyway, the contract's invalid.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Eka » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:09 pm

Just providing a link during registration doesn't immediately legally bind someone. They have to actually agree and proceed with registration to be bound. Otherwise, that counts as refusal of contract. If you attempt to hold a person to the contract anyway, the contract's invalid.


Just to clear up something. Using this site is not a right. It is a privilege that can be void at anytime. It doesn't matter if they claim ignorance. The responsibility is still on their end to understand a rule. We are not providing them any contract or anything.
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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Deathworks » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:12 pm

HI!

Nerva: Ah, then there is a simple misunderstanding. I simply omitted that the binding takes effect when you click on the "I Agree" button because I felt it was obvious in this case (without clicking on "I agree", you won't finish registration and thus can not post on the forums etc., so I figured only the case of agreeing would be considered here). Sorry about this confusion.

So, I think we agree.

Anyhow, I think we are facing less of a legal problem here, actually. The main problem we have is actually that people rarely read the rules even if they do scroll down and click "I agree" or do whatever they are asked to.

Actually, I remember one adult site who did a nice trick by having the obvious link at the bottom go to google or something while the real link into the main page was hidden somewhere else with the information on that link provided imbedded within the warning disclaimer visitors were supposed to read before proceeding.

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Re: Eka's portal etiquette

Postby Jidane » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:29 pm

Eka wrote:It is a privilege that can be void at anytime.


That.

Same with the art that is contributed, if I dare say so. Too many people don't see that the site and the content are not a given. Sadly, usually one only realizes what they had when it's gone.

It's what I think is the hard part. To get people to be aware of the fact that the service that is this site is a privilege.
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