A discussion on underaged characters in vore.

[Indighost]

Where fetishes are concerned, I really do think it's a matter where the dog must have their bone. If you ban the porn, people will seek it elsewhere, and that's worse. Fictional fantasy is fictional fantasy ; despite any crimes depicted in it like death, torture, rape, etc;, and as long as people well and properly understand that line, there is no issue.

[R_U_Snacksize]

For me, as long as it is not sexual I do not care. I also hate to see children tortured, even in a vore story. Most of the time I feel just let them be kids and keep them out of the other stuff.

[Kitsouille]

If the underage character are not sexualized it's alright. Underage characters are special in vore, like if one eat an adult, there's the flip or whatever that someone described above (sorry my post is lazy af but I'm really tired). But yeah no don't sexualize them and it's all fine.

[chubbykitty]

A lot of people are saying "ahh, but if vore were real, it'd be much, much worse than pedophilia!"

Here's the thing, though. Vore isn't, and can't be, real. Child molestation is real, and happens.

I do understand that some people are pedophiles and they cannot help that attraction- but art and literature that scratches that itch feed a beast. It can come to a point where that fantasy becomes so normal, you could forget it's wrong in real life. Feeding pedophilic urges puts real children at risk. It's something to fight against, inside ourselves and in our communities.

[coop500]

I just wanted to say i'm genuinely surprised by the responses here, i expected a lot more hate and a lot more people against it, especially given my recent experiences with people on this subject and about my stories.

[RiffRaff]

I dislike seeing children in vore. For me, context doesn't matter a whole lot on that. It's not like context doesn't matter at all, I'll read a piece where a kid is protected and it's all cuddly-cozy, but in most cases I find myself not liking vore when kids are involved. Maybe it's just because I don't like kids that much.

That said, what other people do is fine. So long as real children aren't hurt, I'll just blacklist some tags and go on with my day. It's not my business to police what other people create and enjoy.

[Justin-Time]

A lot of people are saying "ahh, but if vore were real, it'd be much, much worse than pedophilia!"

Here's the thing, though. Vore isn't, and can't be, real. Child molestation is real, and happens.

True, but that sounds like a lame way to justify one thing being ok and another not. We aren't encouraging the actual act of child molestation. I know you kind of think we are, and I'll get to that, but for now I'm just saying we aren't. We are simply saying that worse things are being put up here as far as how cruel they are, and just because it can't actually happen doesn't necessarily make it less disturbing to think about.

I do understand that some people are pedophiles and they cannot help that attraction- but art and literature that scratches that itch feed a beast. It can come to a point where that fantasy becomes so normal, you could forget it's wrong in real life. Feeding pedophilic urges puts real children at risk. It's something to fight against, inside ourselves and in our communities.

Ok, so I kind of already said this, but it bears repeating and I'm going to get into more detail. There is a lot of media out there that depicts violence. This can be cartoons, video games, movies, you name it. A lot of that violence is pretty damn realistic too. Now, there's a lot of studies out there to see if people who often consume violent media become violent. Most properly done studies show no noticeable differences in behavior between those that tend to watch violence and those that don't. Of the ones that do show a difference, the high majority of them actually show that the people that watch violence are actually calmer and generally more polite than the ones who don't. It's still much more likely that there is no real difference though. Now, no such study has been done with people watching loli, for obvious reasons, but if ones were, I see no reason not to believe we'd get more or less the same trend.

In more plain English, the idea that people who watch any fake child pornography forget that this isn't socially acceptable in reality makes as much sense as saying the same thing with any form of violence. Considering that this doesn't seem to be the case with violence, it probably isn't the case with fake child porn either.

EDIT TO coop500: I am also surprised at this lack of hate. Perhaps the haters are a loud minority?

[Setokaiva]

It isn't a big deal for me. I routinely enjoy underage content (anime/imaginary ONLY, of course), vore-related or no, sexualized or no. It's just another likable fetish for me. It doesn't mean I'm gonna go out and stalk an actual child, just like I wouldn't suddenly take a knife and go stab someone because it happened in a video game or movie or a book. There's a very hard line between content purely created from people's minds, and content that is actually real and involves people getting genuinely hurt. I will happily accept RP's with underaged characters, and in fact I have done so, and continue to do so, both with and as said types of characters.

That said, I fully understand why people may feel uncomfortable with it. I either respectfully leave them alone, or suggest another character or RP that might be more to their liking; if I've got one in mind, that is. Fundamentally, underaged content for me is only as good or bad as its quality, same as any other fetish. It doesn't bother me except when I see things I just don't care for. I don't have to be a pedo to like this; I just have to know where the line is, and stay well on the good side of it. I've been offered 'actual' underaged content by one other person on this site before and have turned them down flat.

[chubbykitty]

Justin,
I would not presume sexual violence and video game violence work on the same principles.
There is actually quite large links between those who view child pornography and those who molest children.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080111204 ... _2004.html
I don't think it's wise, based on how human sexuality seems to work, to keep dipping one's toes deeper into something that is incredibly dangerous to normalize. Why risk making further links in your brain between children and sexual pleasure?

[chubbykitty]

As to "haters", honestly I think they're just avoiding this thread and to some extent the site itself.

[number12321]

chubbykitty, Thank you for saying all that. I keep writing out something to say, but really don't want to get into a debate on the topic. I am glad you covered almost all the points I would make and doing it much better than I would.

Justin-Time, If you reference studies, and use them as the crux of your argument, please provide the studies. There are several things that these studies can have that makes them less applicable to other things, so knowing exactly what the studies are would help. I've seen some of those studies and find a good deal of them are more trying to show that the culture of people who consume violent media is not one that results in violent people. This would not be something you could extend easily to anything other than the topic of the studies.

Setokaiva, Please report that account, I think the debate of children in vore through art can be had here. But if you know someone on eka's is spreading that vile filth then they need to be stopped. (I understood 'actual' underaged content as content in which an actual, real life child was somehow involved. If I was wrong in that understanding then I am curious what you meant.)

[yiffcutie]

being an actual victim of child molestation and pedophilia, i think it's generally okay as long as they're not put in any sexual situation. even then it can be on a case-by-case basis. i've seen some good examples of completely platonic, non-sexual vore involving children. other times, it can be uncomfortable to experience, especially when the intentions of the art are either questionable or dubious. this is just my personal insight on the matter though.

[blergle]

As far as I am aware, anything involved with vore is pure fantasy and takes place only inside people's minds. I don't think ethics apply to thoughts if they are just imaginings and not plans. So long as it never strays into intent or even hints at any real life action, I think anything goes. Any number of other things we see in vore would be just as questionable, i.e. rape, murder, slavery, etc. so the distinction between fantasy and reality is key.

[Jayezox]

I agree that underage is okay on the account that it's not sexual. Also, those that hate it don't just hate it blindly and are not witch hunters. All this talk about labels yet those actually concerned about society get labeled as witch hunters and demonized for raising their concerns. I want to say so much more, but I'm not going to. If I was better informed, I would probably say something that would blow the lid on pedophilia once and for all. Then again, who wants to be informed on that? It's genuinely disturbing and should be. It's something that should make people sick to their stomach because it's not healthy in any way shape or form. There's the paradox we so called "witch hunters" have to suffer.

[Justin-Time]

Number: Admittedly, I currently have no particular study. I don't mean to be dishonest. I simply don't have all that much time on my hands and am going on what to me is common knowledge. That said, I realize actual statistics work much better here. So, tell you what. It may be a couple days, but I will look this up. For now just know that I do think this comparison is legit and my point is that people regularly seeing things taboo in their entertainment doesn't make them think it's ok.

Kitty: So, for the moment I skimmed your study and have a few things to say:

"Data gathered from law enforcement investigations conclude that child molesters often collect child pornography. The term "collection" goes beyond mere viewing to systematic saving, categorizing and fantasizing about the pornographic images. "

From the study itself. This implies that it excludes those who casually view the stuff, meaning it tips the scales in an unfair manner.

This study is outdated. I realize this isn't the best argument, but I think it still needs to be said. The article is from 2004 and so far the data is from 2000.

When the study talks about child porn it seems to be referring to the actual stuff and not anything like animation, though that may just be speculation.

Of course pedophiles have child pornography. It also says they just as often have regular pornography too. Should they be arrested for that too? Correlation =/= causation. This leads me to my next point.

The study seems to imply that the pedophiles have decided on this life style before they start getting the porn. In fact, if anything, getting the porn seems to be caused by deciding to molest children and not so much visa versa. Don't get me wrong, maybe they had some videos and pictures before they went full pedophile, but it didn't seem to really take off until after they decided to molest children. Even then, the videos were more for training than pleasure.

"Many pedophiles acknowledge that exposure to child abuse images fuels their sexual fantasies and plays an important part in leading them to commit hands-on sexual offenses against children."

Just saying I noticed that quote. I don't trust it but also don't have time to look into it right now. I'll look for the context later.

[Artemis]

...It's just so painfully hard for me to take this topic seriously in a world where Sailor Moon is supposed to be 14.

Whether we want to admit it or not, society has tolerated the sexualization of underage characters. So let me counter with another question. If we as a society draw what looks like a 20 something year old model and then bullshit our audiences by claiming they're supposed to be 14, do we really have the moral high ground to judge people for seeing something that doesn't necessarily align with what the writers are telling us and finding it attractive?

I can't really choose any of the votes because I feel like just judging people without acknowledging the underlying issues is virtue signaling. It seems pretty clear to me that the sexualization of underage characters is directly responsible for a significant portion of what we're observing.

[djeurissen]

[...]
Djeurissen, I agree as far as simply having pedophilia desires is not a crime. Giving into those desires, on the other hand, should get you in jail to say the least. Before someone compares this to something like being gay, I assure you there is an important difference. Children in general can't fully understand sex and it's consequences, so even if they say yes to it, it's still pretty likely that they'll be traumatized. [...] To those with pedophilia desires who are yet to to act on them, I do applaud you for not giving into temptation, assuming that's what's going on. However, you should still get help from a psychologist before you do go and fuck a kid, for your sake and the kids'. [...]

Sorry for potentially derailing the conversation, but I saw Djeurssen's comment and had to respond. I will gladly go back to the normal topic from here on out

First of all: I do not think that this topic derails this discussion because once you start talking about this you have to face those discussion.
Rape is a crime => Fact. It doesn't matter if its a child or a Adult the only difference is that the child will propably take much more damage. As many people said as long as its fantasy everything is ok.
Sure one problem could be that access to fictional pornography could increase the desire to try the real stuff. But you can only help people when you allow them to talk about their desires openly and thats exactly the problem. I didn't compare pedophilia with being gay, I compared the way people reacted to gay people in the past with how people react to pedophiles today. The society has to tolerate pedophiles otherwise they will never tell anybody in fear of being judged.

The problem is its pointless to argue as you can see in the reactions to this video/presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4AUzsGbfE
And I'm not quite sure how to convince the society. I mean it's simple "Being gay is not a choice => Any fetish is not a choice" but either the people are too stupid to generalize or it's just mob mentality that prevents them to talk back...

Btw. with "too stupid" I mean hatefull comments. If you do not like children in pronography thats completly understandable, but I hate it when someone starts to judge people who like exactly that.

[Baz]

Where's the "It's not for me, I don't wanna see it, but I have no right to comment on your likes or dislikes" option?

[coop500]

Where's the "It's not for me, I don't wanna see it, but I have no right to comment on your likes or dislikes" option?

I assume "Not really, but it's fine if people want to use them, it's their choice." is that option

[minakotomoka14]

I'm totally fine with underaged characters in vore. In fact, I use them quite often. Little girls and boys in vore is something that I've always enjoyed, because face it, as children, nearly all of us had that one moment or another where we were afraid that the big scary monster under our bed was going to gobble us up. I think underaged prey kind of taps into those old primal fears we all had as kids, and that resonates with me a lot. As long as it's not sexual, it's fine. I don't think it has anything to do with being a pedo.