Smut as art?

[EloquentOrc]

Here is something I have thought about lately and I am interested to hear what people think:

Is smut inherently an inferior artform?

You hear often about people wanting to start writing or drawing other than smut. But is that because smut itself is inferior? Or do they just wanna go more mainstream as it is easier to make career in?

I am not sure what I myself think on the subject. On one hand, I think we might be less critical of something that contain our fetishes, than we otherwise would be.

But then again, that seems to be the case for any genre? There is a lot of trashy action, romance, crime, etc. fiction, some of it making millions.

Is smut simply a genre for ones art and it can be as objectively great as any other? Or will it always be dragged down by the fact it was made to get off on?


Let me know what you think.

[EmilyNidhoggr]

I don't think it has to be dragged down.

It frequently is, I wish I knew for sure why that is. I feel like it is a lot of people's fetish to degrade art and artists, and that often includes artists themselves. The idea of paying someone to deliberately make art that they know is horrible and that they cringe to work on and that makes them feel dirty and self loathing, I imagine, is extremely pleasurable to someone with buckets of money and no creative gift. Alternatively, an artist can easily get off on being used as a soulless sicko's disgusting cum rag.

Coom-brain also disincentivises subtlety, so that's a factor.

I believe there's a real appetite out there for vore art that isn't horned up to 11 and that makes people feel things that require a calm mood to notice, but it takes some faith to believe that.

[TheKawaiiCommie]

People are always elitist about 'vulgar' art all throughout history. I personally think smut is fine and good, but want to expand out of it since sticking inside of one very niche genre is boring, and smut can be exhausting to stay in for so long.

[tfwnogiantgf]

I'm reminded of that old meme: "Art is controlled by the wealthy. Monarchs, Eccentric Millionaires, and Suspiciously Wealthy Furries." Some ask to be drawn on thrones with powdered wigs, some ask to be drawn in stomachs.

In all seriousness: the idea that people can get off to the act of commissioning or being commissioned is entirely new to me. I've only been involved with a couple of commissions/exchanges and they've leaned on the formal end. But I 100% agree to the idea that presenting something as smut tends to turn off the critical brain, especially when it comes to writing. Creators can go a little too far when they make a picture/story/video operate on horny logic (especially in fetishes), and watchers/readers/etc. can be swayed or biased by their own fetishes in their feedback.

Also agreed on the ideas of "vulgar" art being around forever in many genres, and changing constantly. You'd be surprised what kind of classics taught in schools might've once been considered throwaway drivel. Questions about what's really a superior art tend to get existential.

As someone who always comes back to smut writing, I'd say my primary reason for dabbling into "safer" stuff is to expand the skillset. If you're able to build a small portfolio of short stories, or get feedback from a different circle, then you can get more of an insight on your strengths and weaknesses - which make smutty writing better. Even if it's just writing for yourself, then forcing yourself to experiment with different character dynamics, settings, or narration styles, could lead to you stumbling upon something great that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. (At least once then I developed and wrote a character through a private, worksafe story, and then posted terrible smut about them. And for this site specifically, researching the themes of horror stories can help to get in a "prey" mindset.)

It's absolutely going to be different for artists, especially since there's an entirely different set of genres they deal with. But I would guess that working on character design, landscape art, perspective, colour theory, learning art programs, or possibly even SFW commissions, would all bring valuable skills into an artist's toolset that they can apply more naturally to dirtier stuff.

All that to say: smut creation is nice, but to TheKawaiiCommie's point, it's boring if you keep regurgitating the same things (no pun intended.) When you hear people say they want to draw or write things without smut, the understanding I always have is "I want to draw/write things without smut, TOO, alongside what I'm already making"; rather than "I want to abandon smut."

[ryanshowseason3]

To quote a comment on one of my better stories.

"Honestly I stopped reading it for the erotica and read this as a regular short story. You've got some real world-building chops. 5 fucking stars"

I think it is quite possible to have smut be well written enough to essentially hide the fact that it is smut and people will think it's just elaborate horror if you play your cards right.

Honestly the entire slasher film genre is someone getting off on the murder of hot teens. A lot of people enjoy it without sexual intent but I have to say the seed of smut is still pretty much there.

[KnightleyPaine]

Is smut inherently an inferior artform?

No. Because smut isn't an art form, it's a manner in which art can be expressed, a genre so to speak. Like you wouldn't categorize smut alongside literature and cinematography. But you can write smut in your writing or draw smut in your picture.

Semantics like that aside, there is no inherent inferiority to it. Though there are societal pressures and prejudices, including subconscious ones due to the topic at hand.

But I think even people who would say it isn't inferior still have the prejudiced responses around the topic much like how accidental racism works, and most people acknowledge that the general public will judge it in some manner.

You hear often about people wanting to start writing or drawing other than smut. But is that because smut itself is inferior? Or do they just wanna go more mainstream as it is easier to make career in?

It's not about inferiority, it's about public acceptance and appropriateness. For our average artist going pro and gaining conventional acceptance is more of an achievement in their mind, but also generally spoken making a career out of things you like to do like making art often comes with just being happy for more work. Plenty of people just do both.

I am not sure what I myself think on the subject. On one hand, I think we might be less critical of something that contain our fetishes, than we otherwise would be.

But then again, that seems to be the case for any genre? There is a lot of trashy action, romance, crime, etc. fiction, some of it making millions.

Yeah but you put the adjective 'trashy' in front, I think you already realize that this doesn't make action, romance or crime elements cause art to inherently become inferior and the same goes for smut, but just have to reconcile it with subconscious prejudices.

Is smut simply a genre for ones art and it can be as objectively great as any other? Or will it always be dragged down by the fact it was made to get off on?

It's only dragged down by people with a toxic need to put themselves above it, or stereotype how 'coomers' behave, including by the people making it.

Aside of the reasonable idea of protecting minors leading to its limited areas, smut has a taboo status as a whole leading to the societal dynamics around it.

[Winny]

Well, I think smut art and writing can stand the test of time to non smut art or writing, as some trying to step into doing both (Small steps at a time) it is daunting.

The sad thing is, smut is frowned upon most of the internet for art/writing. If you write an erotica novel and post it to amazon you will end up getting tossed into what writers call the "dungeon". It's where they remove your novel from the algorithm, making it so you do not end up on any lists for people to see. They can still find your novel if they know exactly what their looking for, but you will be removed from anything else.

A lot of indie writing sites that authors use to build an audience also have stringent rules against smut. Then if you say host a webnovel on your own site, if it has smut you won't get advertisers. Which is a huge income source for even going that route.

And that's just normal erotica, fetish based erotica can be even worse. Most authors that decide to go down both routes have to play a tight rope game to keep erotica and non erotica away from each other.

[LucifersChef]

Our society has an enormous crushing hatred of sex in any form. Despite being essential for humans to you know, exist and reproduce. So of course anything to do with sex is viewed as 'lesser', 'base' 'uncivilised' 'barbarous' 'inappropriate'. Its complete nonsense.

[notitthrowaway]

Throwing in my 2 cents as a plebian consumer -- it's not that I don't see the artistry and craftsmanship in porn/erotica, it's just that my needs and wants for the genre are a lot simpler than for most other art. I'm just here to get my rocks off, I just want it to be hot. However it achieves that is gravy with me. There's a lot of bad porn out there, AND a lot of well-made porn that's not as hot as some cheaper stuff.

If I want some complex, well-thought-out plotting, or powerful character development, or deep philosophizing, I have a whole world of art and entertainment out there. I wouldn't go to a fetish forum for that. I'm not interested in thinking when I'm trying to get off, and I'm not interested in getting off when I'm trying to think. Of course if you break it down further there are other needs/wants that more specific genres feed (e.g. deep character drama vs. tense psychological horror), but sex is a pretty ubiquitous desire that has stronger emotions around it so it's easy to focus on in discussions like this.

This is just my opinion though of course, people have different tastes.

[Indighost]

The only reason it's viewed as inferior by some is due to the same conservative religious biases that block progress in politics as well.

[EmilyNidhoggr]

The only reason it's viewed as inferior by some is due to the same conservative religious biases that block progress in politics as well.

Damn, son.
It's strange, that position seems so prevalent as an undercurrent to how people talk in kinky circles, it's almost nice to hear it straightforwardly expressed.

It's true in a sense I guess. The same instinct that looks at pornographic distortions of reality and says "this is the junkiest of junk food, best not get sucked in," is going to have that reaction whether the pornography is fetish art or political propaganda. Calling that instinct conservative and religious is probably accurate but far more flattering to conservative and religious politics than those things deserve, considering their track record with propaganda.

[Winny]

The only reason it's viewed as inferior by some is due to the same conservative religious biases that block progress in politics as well.

Damn, son.
It's strange, that position seems so prevalent as an undercurrent to how people talk in kinky circles, it's almost nice to hear it straightforwardly expressed.

It's true in a sense I guess. The same instinct that looks at pornographic distortions of reality and says "this is the junkiest of junk food, best not get sucked in," is going to have that reaction whether the pornography is fetish art or political propaganda. Calling that instinct conservative and religious is probably accurate but far more flattering to conservative and religious politics than those things deserve, considering their track record with propaganda.

No the reason that Indighost said it is because there is a legit large organization that is hell bent on removing all porn from the internet, I can't remember the name of it, but they are the ones that did the funding to hit pornhub a awhile ago forcing them to remove 95% of their content, they are also the ones that forced paypal to attack people using the service for porn/hentai/erotica. They are also the ones that fund a lot of the anti porn right wing political policy in the USA. Its a group of really old, really rich right wing conservative evengelicals.

[fieldmousse]

No. Because smut isn't an art form, it's a manner in which art can be expressed, a genre so to speak

What exactly is the difference to you between a form of art and an art genre?

The only reason it's viewed as inferior by some is due to the same conservative religious biases that block progress in politics as well.

IDK about that. At least not where I live. It would be good to look at BDSM, which has gained a lot of mainstream acceptance in recent years. While it was okay for a bit to buy/read/talk about "50 shades of grey" when it came out, people never really regarded it as 'porn'

Honestly the entire slasher film genre is someone getting off on the murder of hot teens. A lot of people enjoy it without sexual intent but I have to say the seed of smut is still pretty much there.

I think this is a really good idea. Slasher flicks and all that might be arousing to some, but they never really cross the boundary of being pornography or a piece of media that is created for the some purpose of getting off. And think that is why smut is looked down upon. Good art doesn't have utility, it's just enjoyable and can be enjoyed by anyone. Smut that caters to a niche fetish is not widely enjoyable.

[EloquentOrc]

I don't think it has to be dragged down.

It frequently is, I wish I knew for sure why that is. I feel like it is a lot of people's fetish to degrade art and artists, and that often includes artists themselves. The idea of paying someone to deliberately make art that they know is horrible and that they cringe to work on and that makes them feel dirty and self loathing, I imagine, is extremely pleasurable to someone with buckets of money and no creative gift. Alternatively, an artist can easily get off on being used as a soulless sicko's disgusting cum rag.

Coom-brain also disincentivises subtlety, so that's a factor.

I believe there's a real appetite out there for vore art that isn't horned up to 11 and that makes people feel things that require a calm mood to notice, but it takes some faith to believe that.

I am not sure I agree with that there are a lot of commissioners who just want to degrade people. There probably SOME like that, but it seems like they would be very few in number. But maybe I have just been lucky and never been exposed to them.

But yeah, there is definitively vore art with depth.

People are always elitist about 'vulgar' art all throughout history. I personally think smut is fine and good, but want to expand out of it since sticking inside of one very niche genre is boring, and smut can be exhausting to stay in for so long.

I'm reminded of that old meme: "Art is controlled by the wealthy. Monarchs, Eccentric Millionaires, and Suspiciously Wealthy Furries." Some ask to be drawn on thrones with powdered wigs, some ask to be drawn in stomachs.

In all seriousness: the idea that people can get off to the act of commissioning or being commissioned is entirely new to me. I've only been involved with a couple of commissions/exchanges and they've leaned on the formal end. But I 100% agree to the idea that presenting something as smut tends to turn off the critical brain, especially when it comes to writing. Creators can go a little too far when they make a picture/story/video operate on horny logic (especially in fetishes), and watchers/readers/etc. can be swayed or biased by their own fetishes in their feedback.

Also agreed on the ideas of "vulgar" art being around forever in many genres, and changing constantly. You'd be surprised what kind of classics taught in schools might've once been considered throwaway drivel. Questions about what's really a superior art tend to get existential.

As someone who always comes back to smut writing, I'd say my primary reason for dabbling into "safer" stuff is to expand the skillset. If you're able to build a small portfolio of short stories, or get feedback from a different circle, then you can get more of an insight on your strengths and weaknesses - which make smutty writing better. Even if it's just writing for yourself, then forcing yourself to experiment with different character dynamics, settings, or narration styles, could lead to you stumbling upon something great that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. (At least once then I developed and wrote a character through a private, worksafe story, and then posted terrible smut about them. And for this site specifically, researching the themes of horror stories can help to get in a "prey" mindset.)

It's absolutely going to be different for artists, especially since there's an entirely different set of genres they deal with. But I would guess that working on character design, landscape art, perspective, colour theory, learning art programs, or possibly even SFW commissions, would all bring valuable skills into an artist's toolset that they can apply more naturally to dirtier stuff.

All that to say: smut creation is nice, but to TheKawaiiCommie's point, it's boring if you keep regurgitating the same things (no pun intended.) When you hear people say they want to draw or write things without smut, the understanding I always have is "I want to draw/write things without smut, TOO, alongside what I'm already making"; rather than "I want to abandon smut."

Very true. You gotta experiment and try new things, if you don't want to stifle your creativity. And that doesn't mean there anything wrong with what you are branching out from.

To quote a comment on one of my better stories.

"Honestly I stopped reading it for the erotica and read this as a regular short story. You've got some real world-building chops. 5 fucking stars"

I think it is quite possible to have smut be well written enough to essentially hide the fact that it is smut and people will think it's just elaborate horror if you play your cards right.

Honestly the entire slasher film genre is someone getting off on the murder of hot teens. A lot of people enjoy it without sexual intent but I have to say the seed of smut is still pretty much there.

If I understand you correctly, it is that if your writing is good, you can get people interested in the story and characters, even if they originally came only for the porn.

And I really like that, that good storytelling can rise out of any genre.

Though I wouldn't call it smut, I really like the Empowered webcomic. Though it's protagonist is habitually caught in bondage situations and its characters is clearly framed to be titilating, it also has a lot of depth and likable, complex characters. And I actually think it uses its premise of "heroine getting caught in bondage" to make the reader empathesize with how it is to be maliciously objectified.

Is smut inherently an inferior artform?

No. Because smut isn't an art form, it's a manner in which art can be expressed, a genre so to speak. Like you wouldn't categorize smut alongside literature and cinematography. But you can write smut in your writing or draw smut in your picture.

Semantics like that aside, there is no inherent inferiority to it. Though there are societal pressures and prejudices, including subconscious ones due to the topic at hand.

But I think even people who would say it isn't inferior still have the prejudiced responses around the topic much like how accidental racism works, and most people acknowledge that the general public will judge it in some manner.

You hear often about people wanting to start writing or drawing other than smut. But is that because smut itself is inferior? Or do they just wanna go more mainstream as it is easier to make career in?

It's not about inferiority, it's about public acceptance and appropriateness. For our average artist going pro and gaining conventional acceptance is more of an achievement in their mind, but also generally spoken making a career out of things you like to do like making art often comes with just being happy for more work. Plenty of people just do both.

I am not sure what I myself think on the subject. On one hand, I think we might be less critical of something that contain our fetishes, than we otherwise would be.

But then again, that seems to be the case for any genre? There is a lot of trashy action, romance, crime, etc. fiction, some of it making millions.

Yeah but you put the adjective 'trashy' in front, I think you already realize that this doesn't make action, romance or crime elements cause art to inherently become inferior and the same goes for smut, but just have to reconcile it with subconscious prejudices.

Is smut simply a genre for ones art and it can be as objectively great as any other? Or will it always be dragged down by the fact it was made to get off on?

It's only dragged down by people with a toxic need to put themselves above it, or stereotype how 'coomers' behave, including by the people making it.

Aside of the reasonable idea of protecting minors leading to its limited areas, smut has a taboo status as a whole leading to the societal dynamics around it.

Yeah there are a lot prejudices about smut, but I can see where people get it from. Your typical porno really doesn't have much of artistic value. And when you look at smut that has made it into mainstream, like fifty shades, 365 days, etc.. it isn't a much better picture. It must appear that smut is being used to obscure how crappy one's work of fiction is.

But there are undeniably well made smut too, so it IS a prejudice.

Well, I think smut art and writing can stand the test of time to non smut art or writing, as some trying to step into doing both (Small steps at a time) it is daunting.

The sad thing is, smut is frowned upon most of the internet for art/writing. If you write an erotica novel and post it to amazon you will end up getting tossed into what writers call the "dungeon". It's where they remove your novel from the algorithm, making it so you do not end up on any lists for people to see. They can still find your novel if they know exactly what their looking for, but you will be removed from anything else.

A lot of indie writing sites that authors use to build an audience also have stringent rules against smut. Then if you say host a webnovel on your own site, if it has smut you won't get advertisers. Which is a huge income source for even going that route.

And that's just normal erotica, fetish based erotica can be even worse. Most authors that decide to go down both routes have to play a tight rope game to keep erotica and non erotica away from each other.

Yeah, it is a real disgrace how making erotica can even get the rest of your work blacklisted. As if doing erotica, automatically everything else the writer makes. It is a completely unreasonable way to punish writers for writing about a natural aspect of life.
I can definitely understand you want to have a hard line separation between the two sides of your writing.

Our society has an enormous crushing hatred of sex in any form. Despite being essential for humans to you know, exist and reproduce. So of course anything to do with sex is viewed as 'lesser', 'base' 'uncivilised' 'barbarous' 'inappropriate'. Its complete nonsense.

Yeah, demonizing sex is definitely a big problem. It especially becomes absurd how graphic violence skates by where erotica doesn't.

I remember a zombie comic that serves as a good example: You have a perfect view of a woman's gory neckstump. But her nipples? Those had to be obscured. We must think of the children after all.

Throwing in my 2 cents as a plebian consumer -- it's not that I don't see the artistry and craftsmanship in porn/erotica, it's just that my needs and wants for the genre are a lot simpler than for most other art. I'm just here to get my rocks off, I just want it to be hot. However it achieves that is gravy with me. There's a lot of bad porn out there, AND a lot of well-made porn that's not as hot as some cheaper stuff.

If I want some complex, well-thought-out plotting, or powerful character development, or deep philosophizing, I have a whole world of art and entertainment out there. I wouldn't go to a fetish forum for that. I'm not interested in thinking when I'm trying to get off, and I'm not interested in getting off when I'm trying to think. Of course if you break it down further there are other needs/wants that more specific genres feed (e.g. deep character drama vs. tense psychological horror), but sex is a pretty ubiquitous desire that has stronger emotions around it so it's easy to focus on in discussions like this.

This is just my opinion though of course, people have different tastes.

I think you really touch on something relevant here. I think that there is this perception that for a story to be good, it has to be complex. And I don't think that is true.
A story can be very simple and still be very good a what it does. In fact overcomplicating it can be to its detriment.

Take something like the Hobbit. At its heart it is a very simple story. And yet it is very beloved for what it does with its short length.

I think it is the same with smut, that it is doesn't have to be complex, to be done well.

But then there is also just sometimes something of less quality pushes your buttons better than something of better.

Which as a creator I can't help but find a bit disheartening. That you can spend a lot of time and effort writing something to the best of your ability. And then someone post some schlock, where they for one couldn't even be bothered to check their grammar before posting. And it still becomes far more popular than yours.

I guess that is just how it is sometimes though. You can't make yourself emotionally like something, even if you intellectually recognize its quality.


Thank you everyone for your replies. It has made for an interesting discussion

[fixated1]

A long time ago I learned to let this question go. We get so hung up on artificial systems of culture and worry so much about what the most uptight among us will think that we don't allow ourselves to just enjoy something that turns on the happy switch in our brain. I just listen to the happy switch. If it's not hurting anyone and you enjoy it, what more do you need?

[EloquentOrc]

A long time ago I learned to let this question go. We get so hung up on artificial systems of culture and worry so much about what the most uptight among us will think that we don't allow ourselves to just enjoy something that turns on the happy switch in our brain. I just listen to the happy switch. If it's not hurting anyone and you enjoy it, what more do you need?

Ah, but this is not really about shame or acceptance. It is more about the art for its own sake.

Can smut be as good as other genres or is it dragged down by being for the purpose of getting off? Rather than seeking higher quality?

[Ixtili]

I think it's an inherently more alienating art form if someone isn't particularly into the kind of fetish on display or even if someone just derives no entertainment from simulated sex or romance. I'd also say that if an artist is only writing/drawing for a small audience that wants a specific thing there's likely less motivation to improve ones craft outside of that niche and also if someone likes your initial style there might also be less motive to grow.

Personally I can see why wish fulfilment and pornography are both often considered quite low brow. But I've seen things on this very site that are just objectively well-written. While I'm sure my Vore fetish makes some stories and art more palatable to me than a audience without that fetish I'm also not convinced talent has no place in things.

I think it's inaccurate to say that no effort or talent goes into making porn, but I do think it's an art form that can potentially skate by on less due to an audience that readily brings their own imagination to the table. The simple fact of things is that arousal stimulates people's desires and imagination so I think that in some ways it's not wrong to say that some smut gets popular because it's smut and not because it's art. But I'd say that there is still artistry in successfully translating what turns you on into something others can see or understand and there's artistry in managing to make something sexy in such a way that your artistic talent is also obvious.

[KnightleyPaine]

Yeah there are a lot prejudices about smut, but I can see where people get it from. Your typical porno really doesn't have much of artistic value. And when you look at smut that has made it into mainstream, like fifty shades, 365 days, etc.. it isn't a much better picture. It must appear that smut is being used to obscure how crappy one's work of fiction is.

But there are undeniably well made smut too, so it IS a prejudice.

Little aside here.

I'll use three examples to illustrate:

For the first, Fifty Shades. What actually happened was a middle-aged woman wrote porn, but due to how the world of erotica is overwhelmingly male-oriented and bad at understanding what women want, she tapped into a massive viral supply and demand effect. For example, if I want to see large tits and a woman wants to see a guy in a suit, the one more likely to be judged is me, but chances are these desires came from a same place of shallowness, except my desire carried the stigma, so we often fail to recognize when women are being 'shallow'. As a society, we failed to recognize Fifty Shades for what it was and dragged it into a very public light, and then accidentally exposed it to the critical intelligentsia of high literature that it was never meant to get close to.

A long time ago, I read (but didn't finish) this manga called Ubel Blatt. The protagonist is this effeminate elf boy looking character, and one of the first things that happens is he picks up a flirting cue from a girl giving him hospitality and just fucks her. Ubel Blatt is not porn, in fact, that is literally the only time I remember him having graphic sex, I'm somewhat sure there was at least one other sex scene somewhere but it goes volumes and volumes and doesn't really try to find excuses to do the sex thing, it has its own plot. In fact, that smut scene had a very important purpose - remember I said it's one of the first things that happens? You have an effeminate looking protag being waited on by a woman who I think is taller than him, but the manga is about intrigue, betrayal and revenge, and the main character is an adult in every sense of the word and very much not innocent. This sex scene is one of the first impressions you get of him, someone who can pick up on cues, flirt successfully and fucks. It's successful characterization for both the character and the story itself.

Lastly, Lord of the Flies. Pretty sure you've heard of this book if you're old enough to be on here. According to literary analysis, the scene where they kill the pig is written with sexual language, some say its meant to invoke the sense of an Oedipal wedding night. Lord of the Flies has no sex and no smut, but it uses writing patterns associated with smut as a literary tool.

As you can see, smut itself is not an indicator of something being superior or inferior, it's simply something that exists because sex, arousal and indulgent desires exists, very human things that art can explore. Yet, even on a niche weird fetish site like this one you'll constantly see people tiptoeing around sexual themes, the sick fucks.

[fixated1]

A long time ago I learned to let this question go. We get so hung up on artificial systems of culture and worry so much about what the most uptight among us will think that we don't allow ourselves to just enjoy something that turns on the happy switch in our brain. I just listen to the happy switch. If it's not hurting anyone and you enjoy it, what more do you need?

Ah, but this is not really about shame or acceptance. It is more about the art for its own sake.

Can smut be as good as other genres or is it dragged down by being for the purpose of getting off? Rather than seeking higher quality?

But that question itself is about shame vs acceptance. The perception that it's lesser because it evokes lust as an emotion is most definitely built on the foundation of shaming sex throughout history. The argument here is that it evokes the wrong emotion and therefore that there are wrong emotions to have.

Art is art. Genre is not art. Medium is not art. You shouldn't judge art by its medium or its genre. It's like saying light-hearted stories are inferior to dark and grim stories. There are good and bad examples of both. There are good and bad fictional pieces as well as historical ones. Good and bad literature, music, movies, and so on. If there's a genre or medium you don't like, well, that's highly subjective. I like Jackson pollock paintings and hate Dada. Plenty of people feel the reverse, but it doesn't make them lesser

Is there a lack of depth to erotic art? Yes. Is all of the human experience deep philosophy? No. So it's just as much a part of the human experience as anything else. And if we didn't have it, the archeological record we'd leave behind would be incomplete and paint us as rather boring I think.

[EloquentOrc]

I think it's an inherently more alienating art form if someone isn't particularly into the kind of fetish on display or even if someone just derives no entertainment from simulated sex or romance. I'd also say that if an artist is only writing/drawing for a small audience that wants a specific thing there's likely less motivation to improve ones craft outside of that niche and also if someone likes your initial style there might also be less motive to grow.

Personally I can see why wish fulfilment and pornography are both often considered quite low brow. But I've seen things on this very site that are just objectively well-written. While I'm sure my Vore fetish makes some stories and art more palatable to me than a audience without that fetish I'm also not convinced talent has no place in things.

I think it's inaccurate to say that no effort or talent goes into making porn, but I do think it's an art form that can potentially skate by on less due to an audience that readily brings their own imagination to the table. The simple fact of things is that arousal stimulates people's desires and imagination so I think that in some ways it's not wrong to say that some smut gets popular because it's smut and not because it's art. But I'd say that there is still artistry in successfully translating what turns you on into something others can see or understand and there's artistry in managing to make something sexy in such a way that your artistic talent is also obvious.

I think I see your point. There is a lot in the genre that's mediocre because most don't really have high expectations for smut. But there are genuine gems if you are to find them.

Yeah there are a lot prejudices about smut, but I can see where people get it from. Your typical porno really doesn't have much of artistic value. And when you look at smut that has made it into mainstream, like fifty shades, 365 days, etc.. it isn't a much better picture. It must appear that smut is being used to obscure how crappy one's work of fiction is.

But there are undeniably well made smut too, so it IS a prejudice.

Little aside here.

I'll use three examples to illustrate:

For the first, Fifty Shades. What actually happened was a middle-aged woman wrote porn, but due to how the world of erotica is overwhelmingly male-oriented and bad at understanding what women want, she tapped into a massive viral supply and demand effect. For example, if I want to see large tits and a woman wants to see a guy in a suit, the one more likely to be judged is me, but chances are these desires came from a same place of shallowness, except my desire carried the stigma, so we often fail to recognize when women are being 'shallow'. As a society, we failed to recognize Fifty Shades for what it was and dragged it into a very public light, and then accidentally exposed it to the critical intelligentsia of high literature that it was never meant to get close to.

A long time ago, I read (but didn't finish) this manga called Ubel Blatt. The protagonist is this effeminate elf boy looking character, and one of the first things that happens is he picks up a flirting cue from a girl giving him hospitality and just fucks her. Ubel Blatt is not porn, in fact, that is literally the only time I remember him having graphic sex, I'm somewhat sure there was at least one other sex scene somewhere but it goes volumes and volumes and doesn't really try to find excuses to do the sex thing, it has its own plot. In fact, that smut scene had a very important purpose - remember I said it's one of the first things that happens? You have an effeminate looking protag being waited on by a woman who I think is taller than him, but the manga is about intrigue, betrayal and revenge, and the main character is an adult in every sense of the word and very much not innocent. This sex scene is one of the first impressions you get of him, someone who can pick up on cues, flirt successfully and fucks. It's successful characterization for both the character and the story itself.

Lastly, Lord of the Flies. Pretty sure you've heard of this book if you're old enough to be on here. According to literary analysis, the scene where they kill the pig is written with sexual language, some say its meant to invoke the sense of an Oedipal wedding night. Lord of the Flies has no sex and no smut, but it uses writing patterns associated with smut as a literary tool.

As you can see, smut itself is not an indicator of something being superior or inferior, it's simply something that exists because sex, arousal and indulgent desires exists, very human things that art can explore. Yet, even on a niche weird fetish site like this one you'll constantly see people tiptoeing around sexual themes, the sick fucks.

I see. But out of your three examples I would only describe the first as smut. And I would it a poor piece of literature no matter which standards you judge it by.

And do smut really have a "Lord of the flies"? An influential work of the genre that virtually everyone at least knows of? I don't know of any, though that might be due to my own ignorance.'
And maybe smut if too decentralised for something really establish in everyone's conscious. Not a lot of say, book clubs for smut.

Yes there will always be a place for lust in stories, without it by itself dimishing the stories. But can lust stands on its own feet as the main theme, without being diminished as art?

A long time ago I learned to let this question go. We get so hung up on artificial systems of culture and worry so much about what the most uptight among us will think that we don't allow ourselves to just enjoy something that turns on the happy switch in our brain. I just listen to the happy switch. If it's not hurting anyone and you enjoy it, what more do you need?

Ah, but this is not really about shame or acceptance. It is more about the art for its own sake.

Can smut be as good as other genres or is it dragged down by being for the purpose of getting off? Rather than seeking higher quality?

But that question itself is about shame vs acceptance. The perception that it's lesser because it evokes lust as an emotion is most definitely built on the foundation of shaming sex throughout history. The argument here is that it evokes the wrong emotion and therefore that there are wrong emotions to have.

Art is art. Genre is not art. Medium is not art. You shouldn't judge art by its medium or its genre. It's like saying light-hearted stories are inferior to dark and grim stories. There are good and bad examples of both. There are good and bad fictional pieces as well as historical ones. Good and bad literature, music, movies, and so on. If there's a genre or medium you don't like, well, that's highly subjective. I like Jackson pollock paintings and hate Dada. Plenty of people feel the reverse, but it doesn't make them lesser

Is there a lack of depth to erotic art? Yes. Is all of the human experience deep philosophy? No. So it's just as much a part of the human experience as anything else. And if we didn't have it, the archeological record we'd leave behind would be incomplete and paint us as rather boring I think.

I guess I see your point. People's perception of smut can work as a self fulfilling prophecy. Discouraged artists and writers because it isn't "serious" art and preventing audiences from giving it a fair chance.