The First Time (f/m, digestion, scat)

[Kooshmeister]

I've been my usual reactionary self, both on here and on FA, for which I apologize.

This story, moreso than Truth or Dare, affected me on a very personal level. As said in the comments for the story, I myself was socially inept, unpopular and virtually friendless during my high school years, so it is with Matt and characters like him that I identify. On the one hand, I have a masochistic desire, due to picturing myself as the victim, to be duped and devoured for another's pleasure. There's probably some psychological reason tied to my experiences in high school that makes me sort of sexualize this kind of stuff.

But the issue with this story isn't so much the issue of a popular person eating an unpopular person (I have many fantasies about getting gobbled up by a hunky jock, myself). Instead my issue is with the larger implication that it is socially acceptable for them to do so for what I feel are fairly weak reasons. Now, I admit, this is just a vore story; somebody is gonna get eaten and in theory it shouldn't matter how or why this happens, or to whom. However as I have explained, I dislike with the idea that it's okay in this universe to eat people who aren't popular or successful at life, and no one, not even their family, will care or do anything. That just... unnerves me.

That aside, I guess a story like this is good for provoking debate and discussion on the moralities of a hypothetical world where people eat each other. But my sympathy for Matt kind of means that if I lived in a world like this I'd be an anti-vore activist lobbying for prey rights. And likely end up getting eaten. And realize I enjoyed it. Now there's a fun story idea.

[vorebunny]

i still say the main characters reactions are off
as well as the prey's mothers

if she cared about him as much as is described in the story she wouldn't of forced her self on him
or at the very least would of bean devastated by how it went down and the knowledge that her best life long friend probably died hating her and terrified of her
and that she threw everything they had between each other away for a few min of personal pleasure entirely at his expense

the psychology dosnt match up
pred or not they were life long friends
her outlook and reactions do not reflect that enough and in fact they show her to become rather self centered

and pray or not he was her life long friend and she loved him so his thoughts on the mater should of bean a permanent overriding factor for her

thats all im saying

not to mention in such a society ware pred and prey live and work together if vore were to be legal there would have to be laws governing it such as making it have to be consensual. and probably a lot of red tape or ritual around the act weather consensual or not. in order to prevent some sort of war or uprising from breaking out or utter chaos .
but thats over thinking it so i will stop on that one there




o and i did see your response to me on your other post of this story

sorry about the whole nervus thing (im not the writer thing)
criticisms are not always taken so well by writers on vore and other forums
so im kind of weary and nervous when posting them
so thank you for taking it so well

[Hooligan]

*nods at the above posts*

Yeah, the profound lack of remorse or regret on Caitlin's part, kinda kills the earlier depiction you made of her at the beginning of the story. It went from "Testing the Waters" to asking to forget she ever asked. To him doing just that a few weeks later, to betrayal instantly after getting him in her room again. Ultimately for nothing, seeing as how she failed to get his consent, make it pleasurable for him or have his scene mixed in with her waste. Only to get a pleasurable sensation and multi-orgasms from his struggles, which she could have gotten from anyone while still keeping her life long friend.

We also don't get to see how she acts at school the next day. How does she react to seeing his empty desk, knowing she killed him? Does she burp when his name is called and laugh with the Lioness in celebration? Or does she sit there silently as she actually morns at the lose of a friend? Does she notice other students looking at her differently, do some of her other friends avoid her or look down on her for what she did? There's just no inner struggle, when there really should be one. Other-wise it's one hell of a personality flip.

[juicefox]

Okay, scratch that last idea. I’m only one man and I can’t answer all your questions on a forum like this. I’m going to attempt to answer everyone’s questions in a more general way. I’m going to list a few mistakes I think people are making when reading my stories and then I’ll summarize the basic principles behind the culture within my stories and finally I’ll describe why I write the way I do. If you are unsatisfied with my response please leave a comment on the story in my gallery so I can address you individually.



MISTAKE I THINK PEOPLE ARE MAKING:

1) Assuming that sentient beings are rational creatures. They are not. Just because something makes sense doesn’t mean that people will believe it. Often, if not most of the time, humans use rationalization to justify rather than inform. For example: God doesn’t make mistakes and he loves everyone but I hate fags, therefore being gay is a choice and God hates fags (does not reflect personal opinions).

It’s amazing what people will accept if the culture says it’s okay; even when accepting the culture is to their own disadvantage. Ever heard a gay guy say that they don’t need to people to know about their sexuality because sexuality is no big deal. These people are accepting the culture even though it aims to discriminate against them and the rational thing would be to fight against it. It’s easier to let things be, even it means that they have to implicitly admitting to themselves and others that their relationships are no big deal and the one’s they love don’t really matter. At least they don’t matter enough to be worth mentioning.

2) Ignoring the culture of the story and judging the characters based on Western morality. A character wouldn’t feel that bad about doing something that’s commonplace and considered natural, especially when there are no real consequences to their actions. You could say that Caitlin lost a friend, but before she went through with it, he was already replaced by Sierra. The friendship wouldn’t last and for years Caitlin knew it even though Matt didn’t so she had ample time to mentally prepare her self for the cost of losing him before she decided that she wanted to go through with it. If everyone judges your actions positively then it’s easy for you to do the same.

3) Believing that Western culture is the only possible stable culture. In a culture where the cost of standing is death, who would be willing to go against the majority and be the first to say that it is wrong. Predators certainly aren’t going to complain, and prey wouldn’t dare. The culture becomes stable because it works and people don’t know or even want to know any better. “That’s the way it should be because that’s the way it always has been” becomes a powerful argument even though it’s not a very good one. The culture just has so much momentum that it would take a very powerful event for things to change and that just hasn’t happened yet in the world that I write about. No one’s willing to stand up for the weaker loners why they and the people they care about are safe.



SUMMERY OF CULTURE:

The strong prey upon the weak and the weak reproduce at a rate that would be unsustainable if everyone was allowed to live. Predators have the natural instinct to hunt and prey has the instinct to reproduce and in a world where the two have to coexist peacefully they must either embrace their natural instinct or suppress them. The predator’s must suppress their predatory desires but only if the prey suppresses their desires to mate. In the world described in this story, the prey doesn’t do this so the predators must prey on the few for the benefit of the many.

Predators only prey on the loner’s who can’t do much to defend themselves. There would be little chance of retribution from a prey that has no friends and the prey that does have friends can see the act as a necessary evil to prevent widespread poverty and all the chaos and disorder that would surely ensue. Poverty is something that people can come together over and create a movement but when it comes to the weak loners that no one cares about; well, they are too dispersed to come together and create any kind of real resistance or social change so the culture endures. It’s a culture where the one’s who get eaten can’t do anything about it because they are the one’s that no one cares about.



WHY I WRITE WHAT I WRITE:

I might seem callous when describing my world but that is only because I need to create a world where good people get eaten all the time. I’m prey only and I consider myself a good person so I write prey characters in a way that I can identify with and empathize with. I think just about everyone has felt like a friendless loser at some time in their lives so it’s something that we can all identify with.

Although people keep telling me that my predators are complete sociopaths I feel like I’ve best represented how a real person would think and act in a world where vore is common place and socially acceptable. They only feel okay with eating others when the culture or social context says that it’s alright and that they won’t suffer any real repercussions for doing so. It’s easy to judge them negatively from the point of view where vore doesn’t exist but I feel that from the perspective of the culture in the story, they aren’t really as bad as people say they are.

I often use vore as a metaphor for a lot for real life phenomena, which results in most of my scenario’s feeling familiar to a lot of readers. SLEEP TIGHT was a metaphor for the text message break up where the dumper is too much of a coward to deal with the consequences of breaking up in person so they find an easier way around it; SLEEP EATING was a metaphor for the remorse people feel when they put out too early in the relationship and the next morning the partner is gone and the relationship is reduced to a one night stand; TRUTH OR DARE is a metaphor for the way that my friends turned on me and ganged up on me to emotionally destroy me even though that wasn’t their intent; and THE FIRST TIME is a metaphor for the first time, how it’s romanticized but when it comes to the real thing, it’s clumsy and awkward and although people say that it should be done with someone special the actual act isn’t always as special as people say it will be.



Anyway, if you have any specific questions that you feel have been left unanswered then please retype them in a comment on the story in my gallery so that I can address you individually. I don’t like mutliposting in a forum and I’m only one man so I can only answer questions one at a time.

[Hooligan]

Thank you very much for the lengthy response, and sorry if it felt like we were overwhelming you with our criticisms. I personally only ask, so that I can better wrap my mind around how your world works, and your last post handles that greatly. Again, thank you!

I do look forward to seeing and read more of your art and fics, they are all very good and help to really breath life into your world.

[Iceninja]

Juicefox, I feel bad now because you wrote a truly great piece of vore fiction yet you feel the need to have to defend yourself.

The richly detailed world you've crafted certainly isn't an atypical one for our fetish. In fact, lots of mainstream furry comics purport to have similar worlds as well. Take a look at the long running strip Kevin and Kell, for example. In that strip society is comprised of both prey and predators, and the two groups manage to coexist and in some cases even co-habitate despite the over breeding of prey species and the dietary habits of the predators. Some prey might befriend predators, and for the most part everyone is treated as an equal citizen, but it's well accepted that the predatory members of society have the right to prey on whomever they choose.

For those who don't know, K&K revolves around the Declaw family and one of the main characters is Lindesfarne, a teenage hedgehog girl. She's kind, witty, intelligent, and often the voice of reason within the family. During one chain of strips her father hires subcontractors who are (unbeknown to him) actually fire ants. Because of their species they have a bad reputation, but that doesn't change the fact that they're sapient creatures with friends and family. So how does Lindesfarne help deal with the customer complaints after the work has been done? She and her boyfriend literally EAT every single member of the work crew... They're not sent to a digestive hell because they did anything wrong, but because it seemed like the quickest way to placate the angry customers.

So your world (and the morality and social makeup within that world) isn't an uncommon one. I think why everyone is a tad bit depressed is because your story contains excellent characterization and you exhibit remarkable skill in making us empathize and sympathize with the victims. Some more so than others (like the latest of your victims). No one cares about some poor under-developed schmuck in the average, fluff vore story. No one cares about the innocent bystander who gets gobbled up and digested alive in a daily comic strip (*points to the snake K&K comic where a doctor is ironically ending a presumably healthy life*). The way I see it, you're only catching flak because you're a good writer and you actually make us care about the characters. Note that this isn't an attack on the critics, this is just my perception of things.

Anyway, I too found the story a little depressing... but I also found it to be an amazing piece of work. One of my favorite stories of the year. I hope you don't stop writing because you're currently one of the best active writers on Eka's... which is saying something because there are a lot of damn good ones around these parts.

[futavorelover]

i agree with iceninja, it's sad that your being forced to defend your stories. you write great stories that many like and the way you write it is from a more realistic perspective which not many do, stories like yours make me glad vore is only fantasy but i still love them any way

[vorebunny]

thank you for taking the time to respond and explain
...um i wasnt trying to use any western ,eastern or any particular society's philosophy to explain my view of what her reactions should of bean

i was using you description of there relation coupled with behavioral psychology
the same psychology that shows that sooner or later in such a society no mater the values war would break out if stringent rull set were not put in place to govern vore. (like it or not common place or not your talking about one class holding an all rights of life and death over another class and that is going to cause a lot of strife and eventually lead to war) (which might actually make a good sub plot for your world with a rising group of freedom fighters or rebels (mostly made up of prey animals and omnivores ). just a thought )

not to mention the whole his mother would just not care doesn't fly either ounce you apply animal behavioral studies what if he was a prince within his warren but then thats going into the hierarchy family structure of rabbits which for the purposes of just a story may be going to far down the rabbit hole(pun intended) lol

[on a side note since you say you are interested in psychology just in the off chance you may be interested in the psychology of the rabbit please let me suggest to you
a book called : "private life of the rabbit" its an excellent view into the behavior & Family structure of the rabbit
like did you know if confronted a rabbit if it thinks it has a chance will fight to the death (very much in contrary to the misnomer of it being a cowered )
or that when the family grows too large for there living space the does will stop giving birth
or that they have a hierarchy family structure
and that im getting way to far side tracked trying to share this book ]



i do apologize but my years of schooling forces me to over think this
its vore and we should just be happy with that
....... you know what lets just leave it at we disagree
i think ile stop now as i believe it may be upsetting some people .
i dont even know why i bothered most the time i just read a story and be done with it (shore i dissect it internally ) but for me to actually make a post at all is a rarity.
its very unusual for me to of let my self go this far let alone post
and for that i apologize
i guess i was just curious on your decision process for the choices you made with the story
and you have illuminated it and so i thank you


I look forward to your next story
and promise not to be so heavy winded

Edit: mine are animal and human behavioral studies .
i apologize i was tired and just wrote common psychology .
and to show i have no intention of continuing this i am just correcting and altering this post rather then making a new one .

if you are really interested in a discussion feel free to message me.
don't expect a response right away but i will get to it eventually
but i wont continue it hear as it seems to be getting to people.
and since this community means a lot to me i would much rather that not happen.

[juicefox]

thank you for taking the time to respond and explain
...um i wasnt trying to use any western ,eastern or any particular society's philosophy to explain my view of what her reactions should of bean

i was using you description of there relation coupled with common psychology
the same common psychology that shows that sooner or later in such a society no mater the values war would break out if stringet rull set were not put in place to govern vore

i do apologize but my years of schooling forces me to over think this
its vore and we should just be happy with that
....... you know what lets just leave it at we disagree
i think ile stop now as i believe it may be upsetting some people .
i dont even know why i bothered most the time i just read a story and be done with it (shore i dissect it internally ) but for me to actually make a post at all is a rarity.
its very unusual for me to of let my self go this far let alone post
and for that i apologize
i guess i was just curious on your decision process for the choices you made with the story
and you have illuminated it and so i thank you


I look forward to your next story
and promise not to be so heavy winded

A Western perspective is the default position for a Western audience to take and it takes an active effort to switch this attitude off. Even if you think that you’re being open minded you’re usually seeing things through the lens of cultural belief. What makes me feel like you, VoreBunny, in particular are taking a Western perspective is how you’re assessing Caitlin’s reaction. You seem to be looking only from the inside and ignore what’s on the outside (ie the culture). Western cultures see human’s as autonomous whereas Eastern cultures see them as homogenous, thus my conclusion.

I really wish you’d be more specific when you talk about psychology because it is a great interest of mine and I don’t understand which paradigm you’re using to come to your conclusions. You speak of a common psychology but as far as I know no such thing exists; unless you’re talking about popular belief in what psychology is. And what people think about psychology and what people know about it are two very different things. Psychology isn’t a belief it’s a science and a complicated one at that. Only by exhaustively exploring multiple perspectives can we even approach an understanding of just a fraction of reality. Even an expert of psychology will misinterpret the evidence and find an explanation that fits but is not reality. Sometime even frequently (*cough* Freud *cough).

My main interest is in culture and social psychology so I use it to inform my stories. As much as Westerners would like to think that they are each autonomous I think that from the evidence it’s pretty clear that culture and social influence plays a driving, maybe even defining role. For a better understanding of where I’m coming from look up Milgrim’s obedience experiment; Zimbardo’s prison experiment; and Asch’s line experiment, if you aren’t already familiar with them. I’m sure there are youtube video’s that summarize them.

[juicefox]

Oh, and thankyou Iceninja and Futavorelover for your support. I appreciate it.

[AlexandraErin]

I took it from the lioness's conduct that consensual predation is more of a fantasy notion in this world than the way things actually tend to go.

A world that has a predator/prey dynamic like this is going to have its own social mores attached to that. It's not sociopathic ("sociopolitical" means something else) if that's how society is ordered. For my part, I find widespread consensual vore to strain my credulity more than a world where there are predators and there are prey and that's just how it is.

It might be that it wouldn't be illegal for a predator to just up and shoot a prey, but such a thing would be scandalous because that's simply not how it's done. Someone who goes out and shoots rabbits would be regarded a disturbed, because that's not part of society. A predator who stays "lifelong friends" with a rabbit while preying on others might likewise register as somewhat "off". It's all a question of what's normal in society, and being that this is a world constructed to fulfill a fantasy there's little sense in projecting one's own values.

I mean, some people in this world would say we all come off sociopathic or disturbed for being into this sort of thing.

Edit: Oh, I missed that there were two pages of replies and the author had already said much the same things on the second page...

[maleperduis]

You probably already realise this, Juice, but in case you don't, the reason people launch into interrogations or criticisms (and I mean that in the everyday use of the word, not as in what a film critic does) of your characters and settings when they read your stories is because they're well-written enough that they have a pretty strong emotional impact. When was the last time you read a story on this site with fatal vore in a modern, civilised culture where the setting made any kind of sense at all? And yet the vast majority of those go by without any questioning whatsoever, even if they paint a picture of a far less stable or feasible world than yours. For some reason, when people read a story which they find upsetting or unsettling, their first instinct is to try to poke holes in it. So you should see it as a testament to your ability to write engaging stories and characters who people connect with emotionally.

But, for the record, I think if there are holes in your setting, they're not in its differences from real life Western culutre, but in its similarities. A vore world is quite possible to imagine, but would it really have the same, or similar institutions to the ones we see in modern life? Like I've said before, I don't think this stuff matters at all, and I don't think it's possible to do better than you've done, but that would be the most "unrealistic" part of it for me.

[Slash]

Such a busy forum here eh, juicefox? Personally, i loved the story. I find this style of vore more sensible then cuddly, reformation style that most feel comfortable with. Vore to me is not so graceful or tender as some fantasies depict. To me it's about power, domination, indulgence and satisfaction. Which you showed nicely. Some may be off put about the preds or mother characters outlooks of devouring matt. But for the most part, you combined the law of nature with traits of human society. With that mix it would be kind of hard to separate the viewers outlook of human society and separate it for the society the writer is giving us without being in the same mindframe. Or maybe you were going for that. Either way, this was a good piece of vore writing to say the least.

[Cowrie]

Juice, as a fellow writer, I have one question. How long did it take for you to figure this setting out? Because... Wow, just wow. It's an amazing setting. I'm personally trying to cobble together a setting for some vore stories, and I have a very hard time. I prefer to use a dead culture for a basis of fictional settings that I plan on using repeatedly, so Mississippian (mound builder) or one of the Mesoamerican cultures seem like good choices for it.

[juicefox]

@AlexandraErin
I appreciate the support anyway. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who agrees with me.

@pseudo
Yeah, I kinda understand that. People wouldn't invest so much time and effort into something if it wasn't good on at least some level. And I think you're right, people arn't reacting to my stories negatively because they find they unbelievable but because they wish they did. Unfortunately I think in their efforts to disprove the story to themselves they've forgotten the most obvious reason's why the story isn't real. ie. the fact that people can swallow and digest whole people, the fact that somehow animals evolved into somthing that resembles a human simultaniously and, as you've said the fact that these people share the same institutions as we.

I just got a little overwhelmed by so many questions dirested at me from so many directions in a very short space of time.

@Cowrie
The truth is that I didn't really have to think about the setting at all. It's just the real world using vore as a metaphor for real life phenomena. Some may critacise me for not knowing every detail about the world I've started to develope, but a world is a very big thing. I only deal with the world one aspect at a time, so I don't yet know all the answers to the things I havn't covered yet. I feel like if I developed my world to completion first, then my stories would lose all the humanity that I'm trying to capture through them, and judging by epic fantasy writer's work, I feel I'm right in this assesment. My stories are about people not places because a place is only as good as its people, in my opinion. I write the people and the setting naturally forms as a byproduct.

[juicefox]

@Slash
Oh and I'm glad you liked it Slash. It's nice to hear good things from people you admire. I like the way you think about vore and I've always loved your art.

[Slash]

@Slash
Oh and I'm glad you liked it Slash. It's nice to hear good things from people you admire. I like the way you think about vore and I've always loved your art.

No prob. I honestly think that alot of people are taking this too hard and are putting RL thinking in a fictional fantasy universe. Granted there's nothing wrong with that.. but, letting your emotions runaway with you makes this get a little out of hand and difficult for writers and artists to progress there creative mind. You did warn them that there would be digestion &scat and a light summary.. so, you'd think that would give them a heads up. But sometimes i think it's silly that some people can't understand how dark vore can be. Especially on this site.

On another note... it was cheetah vore. Hell ya!

[Sora]

Enjoyed that very much Juicefox.

Keep up the great work! ^^

[r0nniel0ng]

An interesting story. I would like to have heard more from Matt's side during digestion, as well as potentially some dialog. Perhaps some convincing to throw him up? Good stuff overall.

[juicefox]

An interesting story. I would like to have heard more from Matt's side during digestion, as well as potentially some dialog. Perhaps some convincing to throw him up? Good stuff overall.

There's actually a few good reasons why I didn't inclued this. To me, what is left unsaid is just as important as what is said. By not describing Matt outside of how he makes Caitlin feel after he's been eaten it subcomunicates very powerfully that he is nothing more than food and maybe a love toy. His perspective no longer counts so it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned. Besides from that, there is nothing he can do to help himself and Caitlin is too lost in ecstasy to notice any cries if she even cared by that point (which she didn't). By mentioning Matt's perspective I feel like I would have ruined the pacing and cheepened the story as a whole.