D&D Class *Playtest* The Predator

[drellburda]

Hello Everyone, This has been a long time coming. I am proud to present to you a new D&D 5e Homebrew.

I have been working on this project for a while now and I am looking for people willing to help play test this class.

I know of only one other D&D 5e homebrew on this forum viewtopic.php?f=38&t=52789

After playtesting and further development I hope to run a game with this class, the seeds of the Campaign are already begining.

Those who are interested in playing should make two level one characters, using Standard arrray for stats, one just using Wizards of the Coast material, the other using the Predator class. The fisrt 10 Applicants will be DM'ed (geddit) a link to the discord server where it will be run. I am usually free after 5pm CST most nights for contact.

Before that campiagn begins though we will mostly be teasting the rules and seeing where things could be explained a little better and be better balanced.

(The Bananas are place holders until I get permisson from artists who are willing to support the project)

=====================================================================================\\Update 3-5-18 \\=========================================================

Thank you to everyone so far for the feedback.

First, I think the class would be more elegantly designed if it stuck to the usual "every four levels is an empty level with Ability Score Improvement" method.

Whoops, I can't believe I missed that. It must have been when I was messing with the tables. It was intended to be only every 4 levels. The Soul Siphon and Eldritch pool were abilities that I decided to remove and must have also forgotten to update the table.

I would personally consider making Swallow a saving throw with a fixed or level-based DC, maybe even your spell DC.

I can see your argument. Simplifying is one of the main goals of D&D 5e. I can see it being incorperated. Not so much as a save or suck ability, but as a way to streamline the escape process.

Would also remove a lot of the main Class abilities. Maybe give only the Magus archetype spellcasting, and give them a simplified version of the Spell Mutations mechanic. I would take out all but the few "core" abilities of the main class and instead take a page from the Warlock book (specifically, Eldritch Invocations) and force the player to pick which abilities they want to take - this would lead to several different ways to build a Predator!

That is probably a better approach. I was using the Paladin as a base to create this. (Though TBH the only thing really left is d10 hd) I will definately consider taking some of these ideas. The Cad is likely to be able to get some finessable options as well as maybe a reduced version of Cunning actions.

Something that I would also change is the adding of static values. D&D 5e moved away from the previous editions by removing as many modifiers as possible, so in my view, all those +1's you can stack (Overcast, Growth), make everything a lot more complicated. I would suggest moving away from static modifiers and simply adding new flavor (get it) abilities their place.

Again very good idea. I will begin writing up some new notes for ideas.

Especially, specifying at what level each of the Predator Path features kick in would be very appreciated for ease of use!

Thanks, its on my to do list.

I wanted to give you a giant list of feedback as if we were hanging around r/unearthedarcana

If you do find time to I certainly would appreciate it. But for now I would please be patient, as I am about to start working on an update as soon as I finish.

Your Spellcasting implementation is nonstandard, which makes it harder to predict the balance of the class as it levels up.

I can see the issues with this. The Constitution as a Casting Stat was funnily enough an Idea i had in the early stages, but it was scrapped. I think I might rebuild instead a Warlock base class re assambling the class with that new framework.

but your vision of this class seems to be purely for soft vore

This was not my intention. But you have brought this to my attention to this as a possible issue, I will look into implimenting more Hard vore options, possibly as part of a Predator tool box, much like the warlocks eldritch invocations.

I would suggest to add Animal Handling (to reinforce the apex predator fantasy) and Medicine (to represent the knowledge of animal anatomy and biology) to the list of skill proficiency choices. I don't see a strong justification for the Investigation skill proficiency choice. If you agreed to these changes, I'd recommend allowing the player to choose 2 from the list.

Definately worth doing.

[VaguenessIncoming]

Clearly, a lot of hard work and creativity went into this! From a first glance, it has good archetype variety, the mechanics of it seem fun, and there's plenty of stuff to make every level matter.

Of course, I haven't played with it yet, so the thoughts that follow may not actually affect play that much!

Charisma casting makes a lot of sense for this type of class, for sure, and the ability to use a swallowed foe as a spellcasting focus seems really cool and can make for interesting situations where your predator, having been stripped of their gear, needs to overcome someone in order to access the spellcasting that allows them to reach their full potential.

Regarding their level progression, things seem a bit too strong. D10 is up there in terms of hp per level, and I see that they get Ability Score Improvements every two levels rather than four (not to mention, they also get class features in the same levels as their Ability Score Improvements, which is unheard from in other classes). Adding this to the fact they get spells, crazy improvements to Str and/or metamagic, this would easily be the strongest class in the game and require a whole new type of balance.

I can see Swallow becoming pretty powerful - probably too powerful - with access to a Rogue or Bard's Expertise mechanic or Barbarian rage, which could give very powerful modifiers and/or advantage to the grapple check to Magi and Cads, making Brawler seem less unique in comparison. Access to the Enlarge/Reduce spell in the Predator spell list, while thematic, also gives you advantage on this check and makes swallowing a bit too easy. I would personally consider making Swallow a saving throw with a fixed or level-based DC, maybe even your spell DC.

One of the listed class features is Eldritch Pool, but I can't see it in the Predator table. Do you get it at level 1? Likewise, there's something called Soul Siphon that I can't see in the actual blurbs.

Anyway, I like the archetypes a lot. My favorite one is the Cad (even though one of its coolest features can be replaced if you just take Hide Alterations), but the other two have a lot of potential as well - I love how the Magus learns spells, for example, and I really like how the Brawler path eventually turns you into a giant. I would also allow the Cad to make use of the Finesse mechanic since they aren't necessarily as much about brute strength as their swole brothers.

Overall I think this is a really good effort with some good ideas in it. I would change a few things, though!

First, I think the class would be more elegantly designed if it stuck to the usual "every four levels is an empty level with Ability Score Improvement" method.

I would also remove a lot of the main Class abilities. Maybe give only the Magus archetype spellcasting, and give them a simplified version of the Spell Mutations mechanic. I would take out all but the few "core" abilities of the main class and instead take a page from the Warlock book (specifically, Eldritch Invocations) and force the player to pick which abilities they want to take - this would lead to several different ways to build a Predator!

The Cad feels lacking in comparison to the other two. I'd give them something else to play around with in combat - maybe some specific Battlemaster maneuvers to make them trickier to fight and able to set enemies up for your allies to deal with?

Something that I would also change is the adding of static values. D&D 5e moved away from the previous editions by removing as many modifiers as possible, so in my view, all those +1's you can stack (Overcast, Growth), make everything a lot more complicated. I would suggest moving away from static modifiers and simply adding new flavor (get it) abilities their place.

Finally, I'd make the Predator mechanics a whole less complicated overall. This class has a lot of book-keeping necessary, which would be okay for the Wizard-y Magus, but for the Brawler and Cad, it doesn't seem to fit. Grappling is already by far the most complicated mechanics in the game, and this class revolves around it while also adding way more mechanics to keep in mind!

Again, really good effort, and I really like what you have so far - I already have a couple character ideas in mind, which is what any good class should do! I truly believe that if you smooth it out some more, you can get something truly special here. Let me know if you'd like any help trying to figure stuff like this out, I'd be happy to do so! I don't use Discord so sadly I cannot participate in this game, but I can always be reached via PM

[Netjak]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you VaguenessIncoming, the cad is a very, very potent archetype, possibly the best at sneak takedowns, with the Coup de Grace feature, and likely one of the best social classes, with a possibility of expertise in 6 skills with Performance Expertise, more than even the rogue! Sure, in a straight up battle, both the magus and brawler should outperform them, but that's not the intended purpose of this class, or atleast does not seem to. In addition to combat, there are two other pillars keeping the D&D game going, exploration and social interaction, and the Cad has both of them beat in both those aspects! (Unless the magus stacks exploration spells)

Otherwise, the document is pretty neat and tidy, though, with a lot of stuff that could be specified. Especially, specifying at what level each of the Predator Path features kick in would be very appreciated for ease of use!

[VaguenessIncoming]

Quite true! I was looking at it from a purely combat perspective, and that's really bad practice, so I retract that statement. The Cad is indeed very potent outside of combat, and certainly good at covering both the rogue and the bard archetypes in all of their Expertise-y glory.

[Assimilation]

I wanted to give you a giant list of feedback as if we were hanging around r/unearthedarcana, but there's just so much here to absorb that I can't give you a fair analysis in the amount of time I have to give for now. I've eliminated about half of my original post so that I could focus on just one major sticking point in your design:

Your Spellcasting implementation is nonstandard, which makes it harder to predict the balance of the class as it levels up. Here's how the Spellcaster design typically works:

• There are 3 main "speeds" of spell progression, referred to as "full-caster", "half-caster", and "third-caster", plus the unique model of Pact Magic used by the warlock which we won't try to fit in here.
• Full-casters gain their Spellcasting feature at 1st level, half-casters gain their Spellcasting feature at 2nd level, and third-casters gain their Spellcasting feature from a subclass at 3rd level.
• Full-casters learn cantrips, can use a spellcasting focus, can cast their ritual spells as rituals, and have a particular spell slot progression that gets access to 9th-level spells by 17th level.
• Half-casters do not learn cantrips, use spellcasting foci, or cast rituals. Their particular spell slot progression can access 5th-level spells by 17th level.
• Third-casters do learn cantrips, but don't use spellcasting foci or cast rituals. Their spells are derived from the spell lists of other full-caster classes. Their particular spell slot progression can only reach 4th-level spells at 19th level.

You need to decide whether you're going to make the class a full-caster or half-caster class. (Third-caster wouldn't make sense at all here, since magic is not optional for the predator class.) My personal recommendation would be to make the class a half-caster, and you might later boost the magic-themed subclass with a short-rest spell slot recovery feature. I actually think that you could also consider copying the warlock's spell progression entirely, since Pact Magic is a 1st-level feature, the progression reaches 5th level which is how far your currently implementation goes, and you appear to want cantrips.

As a big break with design tradition, I think you might also want to consider casting from Constitution instead of Charisma. If the predator's magical power comes from their belly, I think it's worth considering. (For balance, if Constitution gives both offensive and defensive power to this class, I think it'd be necessary to remove Unarmored Defense.) Currently, there are races that can cast a spell once per day (like the Genasi) where that spell uses Constitution for their spellcasting ability, so it's not completely outlandish to try a design like this.

Also, a few non-spellcaster things I couldn't bring myself to erase:

• Just going off of the descriptions in your introduction, you're too generous by giving a martial weapon proficiency. The class appears to be a half-caster where the physical side focuses on unarmed strikes and 'grappling'. Not only that, but your vision of this class seems to be purely for soft vore—you might want to help keep everything that way by picking and choosing only weapons that deal bludgeoning damage, instead of giving blanket proficiency with all simple weapons.
• I would suggest to add Animal Handling (to reinforce the apex predator fantasy) and Medicine (to represent the knowledge of animal anatomy and biology) to the list of skill proficiency choices. I don't see a strong justification for the Investigation skill proficiency choice. If you agreed to these changes, I'd recommend allowing the player to choose 2 from the list.

[VaguenessIncoming]

To add a little tidbit to Assimilation's amazing analysis that supports one of the points: Constitution casting can also be seen in the Barbarian's Storm archetype, which uses Constitution to calculate the spell save DC of its aura abilities, so it's not unheard of as a class feature either.

[drellburda]

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=53152

Just finished an update. Please feel free to check it out.

[Siuddithsi]

bumping for D&D vore research