On RPG maker games

[warbrand4]

This is a rant topic and has little perpose, but is targeted at how some times people can be over critical or underestimate rpg maker games.


Go back a year and you would see a flood of people trying to make RPG maker games on this site, most would last one or two updates before dying. The ones that live tend to do so through the creater getting help, or a really committed fan base for said game, pushing them through that. There are outliers yes but that is not the topic here.


I miss the RPG maker games that would pop up, now there is only like 3 or 4 still active and atleast one of them hasn't released yet. (not counting completed ones here).

Bellow is a list of things I think everyone should concider when making a rpg maker game.

This list is in no order.


*story/lore
Problem: more then a few people make a vore RPG thinking they can just throw vore into a RPG game setting. Unfortunantly that rarely works.
solution: this is actually the easiest one to solve, if some one wants to make an rpg maker game they need to do 2 things with the story first off they need to set up the land and the lore along with the reasons for vore and what it means in the world, along with this they need to work on the story of the character. Note the lore doesn't need to be shown it is there to bind the world. The first question you should always make when designing a place or scene does this make sense for the lore and the characters.
where it works: yeah I can point to any still active vore game here even teh none rpg maker ones, all have a story and lore even the blackjack one.


*art vs text
info: ok this isn't a problem/ solution thing, this is more a stile thing art vs text. do you explain your world with art or do you explain it with text. Text is much easier but you have to be profecent in writing and test the game looking for errors. You will also need some one to spell check and grammar check it. While art is much harder taking longer and requiring more work but results in less writing(unless you do both) and more visually pleasing ascetics. both ways work unless you swap between them with out reason.(some old rpg maker games did this a lot)


*over planning/OVer complicating things
problem: This is why mephisto and I had to restart our game from scratch, we dug ourselves into a hole having grand ideas but no skill to make them. As a result the game seemed like its vore bits where tacked on and the world was grand but bland. We had several ideas but most only muddled the design. This is a big one maybe even the biggest problem if it wasn't for the next thing on the list.
solution: This is a hard one but the best solution to overcomplicating a game is to write down your objectives and main story then stick to it, this maybe harder for some, but it is a needed thing. With out it a story can go haywire breaking into a complex mess that just muddles everything.

*community problems
problem: ok I am not calling out the community here, this isn't just on us as players and creators. Generally this community is great but there are a few bad apples, one thing to note is that being overly critical is a thing and many of the people that are making the games are working alone or with 1 or 2 other people. Repeatedly pointing out the same bug over and over again only brings people down. Not only that but I for example am a sign of what not to do as a developer in the fact I have gotten openly hostile with people doing said thing. what is worse is when you have one person point out the same bug in 3 posts after you replied to another person who posted the bug in the first place telling them it will be fixed.
solution: for people to read the hole topic, or at least 3 pages back on a topic (this goes for any v-game)
side problem: IF you see a game that has been dead for more then 8 months do not bump the topic, if it is still alive the owner will post or bump it themselves.


*working alone
anyone wanting to create an rpg maker game or any v-game please do not do so alone. This may sound strange especially if it s your project and your world. But working alone is a bad idea it almost always results in a person either overworking themselves or just losing focus and no longer caring about the project(yes both happen with teams but as a team you can catch the problems and if needed talk through things).

I am not saying we should have a team of people making the rpg maker games here (though it would be nice if enough of us could agree on a concept) but I am saying get some one to work with even if it is just a friend to play test. This only makes things better in the long run.

Being a one man team may work for some but not for all and a single person will always miss things we are human we do that.


...

sorry this is just a rant and dispite the fact I am posting it I might delete the topic depending on the responce... I know nothing I have typed is perfect and my view is skewed so anyone who wants to correct me please do.

[Thagrahn]

Well, I can confirm that working alone is very hard.

I created one game by myself while still in college, since then I have usually been to tired from work to put more than a few hour a week into relearning the programs like Game Maker and RPG Maker.

Doing it yourself means having full control over the game development, but since it can take a MONTH to get an hour of game play, you have a long road ahead.

Finding reasons not to work on the game get easier the longer you haven't worked on it. The less work done when you do work, the more disappointed in the progress you can get.

I'm actually trying a backwards approach this time round. Looking at where I want the game to end, and filling in the challenges for how the player gets there.

This means testing everything to make sure the skills don't become available until the player is clearly past the challenge where they where it would have made things to easy.

Unfortunately, I'm still working slowly and am working on the structure of the final battle sequence (stuck using default battlers) as the characters get the relationships developed.

Working this way, I have the end, but am driven to build the why.

[Erecant]

Hoo, this could end up being a doozy. Guess I'd best chime in.

As to your first point, story is absolutely of utmost importance. You're 100% correct here. The way I see it, games are no different from novellas or comic series. Continuity and ambiance are everything. Sure, you can have some plot holes here and there, but an overarching story, or a well played bit of world building are a necessity. I'd go so far as to say a plausible, well outlined and consistent story is the single most important part of any game.

As A direct corollary, competent writing is an absolute must! That is not to say I expect every game to be a perfect example of your high school English teacher's wet dreams. Effort is really all I ask, whether it be from games I enjoy here at the portal, or in my own game. Effort given toward decent writing on a mechanical level is instantly indicative of the creator's overall commitment to the project. Typo's here and there can be overlooked, but repeated, glaring errors, deliberate betrayal of grammatical function, and spelling fit to bring my grade-school instructors to tears is hard to swallow.

We all are cognizant of our own literary abilities. I can hardly imagine not knowing of such a glaring shortcoming. This sort of personal familiarity can be used to overcome many faults in a game designer. If you aren't at least 90% confident in your ability to profoundly express ideas and concepts in your chosen language, plug any and all text destined for your players into a word processor before copy and pasting into your game. It takes mere seconds more than directly typing, and the squiggly red lines will alert you to the most egregious errors.

Moving onto your second point; art vs text.

There is no clear-cut definition of what makes a good game here. A well written game can be text only and lose absolutely nothing. Skillful implementation of beautiful and evocative art can cover for minor flaws in prose. Utimately the choice is up to the author here. There is no wrong decision, barring the absence of a decision. In my own game, I make use of a primarily text format, which is supplemented by rudimentary images created via a free online application (K-Kisekae is an awesome tool in the right hands!) This approach seems to be reasonably well accepted today. When I am sober enough to type coherently, (unlike tonight, oops!) I like to think that my prose covers the lack of more sophisticated art. All told the game designer should just pick a style for their game and stick to it. Do you have artisitic resourced, be in yourself, adequate funds, or an amenable friend? Go for the pictures! Pictures are awesome. Do you write well, or in the absence of said skill, are you willing to spend obscene amounts of time getting things to sound just right? Start pounding away at that keyboard! There is no wrong answer, just find your talents and run with them here.

The third addressed point above is probably one of the most important lessons to take to heart, yet at the same time is not to be minded.

Sound confusing? I certainly hope so! I like to refer to this problem as feature, or scope creep. It is extremely easy to fall into the trap of "wouldn't it be cool, if? . . ." or "I wish X character could . . ." These are perfectly normal thoughts for a fledgling game developer. Hell, veterans have the same instincts. Deep down we are all children that wish things would go exactly as we imagined them, without excessive effort. Sadly it is not to be so. This is probably the singular most difficult hurdle to overcome as an indie game developer (let's be real, if you're developing a fetish game, it's about as indie as it gets) As a means to avoid unnecessary feature creep, I find the answer to the first topic brought up tonight to be a very effective tool.

A strong story can help you define your goals and features for a project. Always ask yourself, "Is this needed to tell my story?" If not? Hold off on implementation of that particular feature until you've moved to the point of stability, and can afford to spend a few hours muddling through an engine difficulty. Remember! Nothing comes easy, and cool features least of all! This is where experience as a developer comes into play. As you do more and more, you get a feel for how long things will take to build. What you can manipulate the engine into doing. As a fledgling designer, it can be very easy to bite off more than you can chew, while a veteran will look at a suggestion objectively and know immediately whether or not it might be viable, or even worth his time to consider!

Remember, mistakes are made and are from whence wisdom flows. Make mistakes, and go back to fix them, over and over, until you know better.

I have little to add to the fifth point, above. Many members of the community here are awesome. Absolutely blow my socks off, supremely helpful, wonderful souls. I love this place, this site, this community. That said! There are some who come off strongly, or are less than understanding of a projects intricacies. I'm not here to critique the community. We've all seen the various saints and sinners in action. No drama here. Rather! As a developer it is extremely important to approach a project with an open mindset. There will be good feedback, and it will spur you to untold heights! You will want to drop everything in order to work on the next version to please the adoring public. That's awesome! Good Job! Bask in the attention!

There will also be the critics. I say this to be completely, perfectly honest. Every project has it's problems. They are unavoidable. Said problems Will be brought to your attention. Oft times they will be discussed ad nausea. My biggest suggestion . . . grow a thick skin! Don't take criticism or bug reports personally. People want you to succeed. They want to see your project become something they'll hold on their HDD for years and years. Sometimes passions and hopes can get the better of us, and feedback can come off as stronger than intended. As a well adjusted developer, don't take it personally. Just address the issue. Whether that means a bug fix, or explaining a mechanic, that's all part of the job you signed up for.

I have mixed feelings regarding the fifth concern brought up. Solo projects can work stupendously assuming several factors. Really i comes down to adherence to the above topics. If a solo developer has a solid grasp of all of the above, and has a glut of time to work toward a game, go for it. Have fun! Working alone can be liberating. With no one to answer for, you can let your creativity soar! So long as you don't weigh it down with too much baggage from the above concerns.

As more people are added to a project, the troubles shift. As opposed to lack of appropriate skill sets, the primary designer must instead develop soft skills, interacting with the various resources available to the project in order to coalesce into a synergistic whole.

Holy hell, I did it again! Sorry for the wall of text guys, but this is a topic relatively close to my heart. RPGMaker has the potential to create wonderful products. With respectable effort, amazing things can be produced within the confines of the exceptionally available engine and framework. Don't be afraid to try something that sounds completely absurd! My own game was built within RPGMaker, and looking at it, you would never be able to tell. The engine will do what you are willing to learn how to tease it into. So tell your stories! Build your worlds! Have fun! And proofread, I guess. (That last is no fun, but . . . yeah do it anyway)

Sorry for the rant

--Erecant

[CrazedCultist]

Wall o' Text

Pretty much how I see it as well.

However, for someone like me I'm absolutely horrible running my own projects. I get distracted so easily and lose focus at the snap of a finger and next thing I know I'm playing DOOM (ohoh).
So having someone Tell me what needs to be done is normally better for progress on my end. Not everyone is like that and not everyone is gonna get it first go.
You gotta put the Hours in if you want good results.

[TheFetishBeast]

Honestly, I've found that working in a team can be a negative thing. It might just be me, might just be that I really suck at working with a team, which wouldn't surprise me at all, but I believe that when you have a team to work with then everyone will want a slice of the pie. Yes, for good reason, it's their game too but when it comes to games like this we all have incredibly varying likes and dislikes. For example, I absolutely loathe scat. That's why you don't see that in any of my games. But if I were to have an artist who absolutely loves scat assist with my games... J-Just imagine the conflict that would cause. I remember this one time I actually managed to get an artist to work with me to make a game on yoyogames's Game Maker and on top of it, his art was friggin' amazing... quality-wise. When it came to what he was drawing I was just thinking to myself 'That is ****ing disgusting...'. As a result, we weren't in agreement and the game never got anywhere. This is why I work alone. When I'm alone I won't have any those conflicts. I just can't handle them.

[KavenBach]

As I've been working on a game in RPGMaker myself, a long-term project, this topic kind if called to me. I rarely post here anymore, mostly due to my limited internet time, but this one felt worth the time.

*story/lore
Problem: more then a few people make a vore RPG thinking they can just throw vore into a RPG game setting. Unfortunantly that rarely works.
solution: this is actually the easiest one to solve, if some one wants to make an rpg maker game they need to do 2 things with the story first off they need to set up the land and the lore along with the reasons for vore and what it means in the world, along with this they need to work on the story of the character. Note the lore doesn't need to be shown it is there to bind the world. The first question you should always make when designing a place or scene does this make sense for the lore and the characters.

Absolutely. Having the vore being absolutely random will just throw off the mood of the game. You need to have some vore with your story, not some story with your vore.

*art vs text
info: ok this isn't a problem/ solution thing, this is more a stile thing art vs text. do you explain your world with art or do you explain it with text. Text is much easier but you have to be profecent in writing and test the game looking for errors. You will also need some one to spell check and grammar check it. While art is much harder taking longer and requiring more work but results in less writing(unless you do both) and more visually pleasing ascetics. both ways work unless you swap between them with out reason.(some old rpg maker games did this a lot)

This is a big one in my situation. My writing is my strong suit, not my game art. I'm trying to make Helpless Heroine have as deep and interesting a story as possible, to compensate for the crappy sprites. Unfortunately too many players are just too closed-minded to look passed the art if it isn't mind-blowing top-of-the-line stuff. Generally the younger players, I've noted. The players that grew up in the early age of computer games tend to remember how things used to be and can still see passed the art to the story. Nostalgia gets them into the game, the story keeps them.

*over planning/OVer complicating things
problem: This is why mephisto and I had to restart our game from scratch, we dug ourselves into a hole having grand ideas but no skill to make them. As a result the game seemed like its vore bits where tacked on and the world was grand but bland. We had several ideas but most only muddled the design. This is a big one maybe even the biggest problem if it wasn't for the next thing on the list.
solution: This is a hard one but the best solution to overcomplicating a game is to write down your objectives and main story then stick to it, this maybe harder for some, but it is a needed thing. With out it a story can go haywire breaking into a complex mess that just muddles everything.

VERY easy to do. That was the biggest reason why I gave up on Tower Of Change; after listening to all the requests/demands of various players, the game's scope just got too big for me to keep track of (programming is NOT my strong suit).
With Helpless Heroine, I had a large worldview in mind from the start, and while I *AM* adding things as I go, I've learned not to focus too much on complicating things.

*community problems
problem: ok I am not calling out the community here, this isn't just on us as players and creators. Generally this community is great but there are a few bad apples, one thing to note is that being overly critical is a thing and many of the people that are making the games are working alone or with 1 or 2 other people. Repeatedly pointing out the same bug over and over again only brings people down. Not only that but I for example am a sign of what not to do as a developer in the fact I have gotten openly hostile with people doing said thing. what is worse is when you have one person point out the same bug in 3 posts after you replied to another person who posted the bug in the first place telling them it will be fixed.

Being overly critical, deliberately cruel even, is not helpful in any way. To be fair, some people just enjoy seeing a project dropped. Don't like the art? Don't be the obnoxious prick who insists that "watching white dots on a black screen would be more entertaining." That's not helpful or even nice. Critique things, sure, but don't be vicious.
To be honest, this is the reason why I haven't posted Helpless Heroine hereon Eka's; there is such a massive diversity of tastes around here that my view of vore is nestled away in a tiny little niche that 99% of potential gamers here would not like; ie there's no scat, there's no furries, there's no F/F vore, there's no giantesses; the list goes on. My interest in vore simply doesn't fit with the potential gamer base. Trying to get some attention here would draw in too many of the complainers about the content, which would only discourage me and cause me to drop the project entirely. Besides, the game is heavier on Transformations than Vore, so it belongs where it is, on the TFGamesSite.

*working alone
anyone wanting to create an rpg maker game or any v-game please do not do so alone. This may sound strange especially if it s your project and your world. But working alone is a bad idea it almost always results in a person either overworking themselves or just losing focus and no longer caring about the project(yes both happen with teams but as a team you can catch the problems and if needed talk through things).

I am not saying we should have a team of people making the rpg maker games here (though it would be nice if enough of us could agree on a concept) but I am saying get some one to work with even if it is just a friend to play test. This only makes things better in the long run.

Being a one man team may work for some but not for all and a single person will always miss things we are human we do that.

I've been working on Helpless Heroine alone. The drawback is, you have to do all the work yourself. The advantage is, you have your own view and you can stick to it, if you don't let your test gamers affect your decisions too much. It means the project will take a long time (I've been working on this one for a couple years now, a tiny bit at a time). It means the project, if you stick with it, will be entirely your own and you're far more likely to be proud of the result.

[Thagrahn]

I poked around the forums for RPG maker, and looked in my books on game development. Here are somewhat approximate time estimates for just how much work can go into 1 game.

Preplanning and Concept Refinement; 100 ~ 200 hours.
This is the part where you just figure out the basic primis of the game, refine it to a single sentence of what the MCis trying to achieve, and figure out your main characters for the game.

Engine Preparation; 50 ~ 1000 hours.
This is the work done on the Classes, Skills, Equipment, Enemies, and other built in features of the game engine.

Level/Map Design; 20 ~50 hours per level or map.

Art Assets; 10 ~ 50 hour per character or creature.

In all, game play progression is at approximately 100 hours per hour of game play, but the first hour of game play can take 1000 hours worth of work.

...

For someone working alone at a rate of 3 hours a day, 6 days a week, and doing all the work themselves; a year can go into get the games first hour, and two months into each additional hour of game play.

An indie team of 5 people working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, can take three months to get the first hour completed, and crank out two additional hours of play each week.

AAA level game developers, such as Blizzard, can commit 100 people to a single game for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. This means, top level game companies can do in a couple weeks, what an indie team can spend a year attempting.

...

Indie development is far from ideal, but they are usually the training ground for proving yourself.

This is just the layout of things in hours, and does not account for budget. Quality game development tools can run over $1000 US per person for the top level game companies, while indie developers look for as cheap as possible (Free if they can get it.), and that sometimes means extra work in finding, and learning the supplies.

[Slate]

Engine Preparation; 50 ~ 1000 hours.
This is the work done on the Classes, Skills, Equipment, Enemies, and other built in features of the game engine.

Yup, that is about as accurate as you can get.

I myself have been working on an RPG Maker game recently, and I suppose I should put in my two cents.

Story/lore: You hit this spot on. Without any story, or with some really crappy story, nothing really makes sense and it leaves players confused. If you aren't invested in the characters of the story, how are you going to feel anything at all should they die? Would it really make sense for someone who made a vow to be a pacifist to just throw that all away and nom someone? Stuff like this needs to be addressed, lest you alienate the players.

Art Vs Text: Nothing to say here, so moving along.

Over planning/Over complicating things: For many newcomers, this just might be your biggest problem starting off. We could get in over our heads because we are very passionate about what we are creating. The best way to stop this problem until you get that scrying eye is too just plain test stuff out. Don't scatter it all over the place, just make a little test to see if it is too much work or not.

Community Problems: I haven't been around for long, so I can't really talk about this.

Working alone: You know how some people do better in groups while others do better by themselves? That is basically the same for this. People who work by themselves don't have to change their vision and will get the entire batch of the credit. They will have a longer development time for sure, but will be able to make a more consistent experience, not have to wait for others, and get full reign over the direction of the game. They will also be accountable for EVERYTHING, and can get stressed out easier then in a group (In my oppinion) Working with a team might have an amazing synergy that makes the game thrive and come out faster. You will have to be on the same page during the entire development cycle, and that could cause some issues. If you are relying on a team member for a part of the game you absolutely NEED, and they are a no-show, that could spell an ungodly amount of problems for you and any other possible team members. Either way, choose what is best for YOU.

[empatheticapathy]

*working alone
anyone wanting to create an rpg maker game or any v-game please do not do so alone. This may sound strange especially if it s your project and your world. But working alone is a bad idea it almost always results in a person either overworking themselves or just losing focus and no longer caring about the project(yes both happen with teams but as a team you can catch the problems and if needed talk through things).

I am not saying we should have a team of people making the rpg maker games here (though it would be nice if enough of us could agree on a concept) but I am saying get some one to work with even if it is just a friend to play test. This only makes things better in the long run.

Being a one man team may work for some but not for all and a single person will always miss things we are human we do that.

Very much so, though working with a team presents its own challenges, and it's not always easy to redress them, especially given that, as money isn't changing hands with most of these dinky little projects, there's not a whole lot of leverage for negotiation.
I think the happy middle is to have supplementary help from someone else, while the project head does the bulk of the work themselves. Testing is a good one, but it can also be worth it to have someone who chips in with the writing or the art.