Vore War V39

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Re: Vore War V27

Postby Randulf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:37 am

I know the game was just updated but would a small addition to the map editor be possible?
I for the life of me cannot find where some villages are not connected to others on my map so it would be nice if the game showed you what villages are affected
Also a very small QoL thing would be to make right click in the map editor make the tile the cursor is under the selected tile
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby Turbotowns » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:31 am

What about the adaptive biology thing?

Also, was it requested that the ai to ai diplomacy message stays up for longer/indefinitely(like the unit revolt/defection message)?

And is there a way to check our current imprinted soldier?
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby shaw843 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:28 am

The leader trait section hasn't been removed has it? I only see text bars for male, female, and herm.
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby MarkusFreeman320 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:04 pm

K, I've discovered a glitch, if in a town you select level up with no unit selected, the screen grays out but no menu pops up, and you can't interact with the game anymore, however if you go to close the game a pop up still asks if you're sure you want to quit.
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby bahamut24 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:45 pm

nice job

is it too much to ask for disable/enable either soft or hard lv cap?
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby GramzonTheDragon » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:17 pm

Micadi wrote:
gigaredpanther wrote:I gotta say, the new gryphons are real tough bastards! I like to play with rules that make it so 'monster' encounters don't despawn after defeating a garrison. I try to play a game using the new races, and, uh... The driders got eaten by gryphons. All of them. An enire faction taken down solely by gryphons at default scaling, spawn rate, etc.

I'm really glad you can rebalance the game yourself. As much as I love being gobbled up by cute wildlife, it was really getting out of hand! Lowered the spawn rate and gave them the 'Foolish' trait. That made the game much less of a catbird apocalypse scenario.

I love them! Really. But YIKES!


That's actually my fault lol. But I didn't make their stats that much different from Wyverns or Harvesters though
Code: Select all
Harvesters:        BodySize = 18,            StomachSize = 30,            ExpMultiplier = 1.5f,            PowerAdjustment = 2.2f,
                Strength = StatRange(12, 22),                Dexterity = StatRange(6, 14),                Endurance = StatRange(18, 24),                Mind = StatRange(6, 10),
                Will = StatRange(10, 22),                Agility = StatRange(18, 28),                Voracity = StatRange(18, 24),                Stomach = StatRange(10, 14),


Wyvern:            BodySize = 18,            StomachSize = 18,            ExpMultiplier = 1.5f,            PowerAdjustment = 2f,
                Strength = StatRange(8, 20),                Dexterity = StatRange(6, 14),                Endurance = StatRange(12, 20),                Mind = StatRange(12, 28),
                Will = StatRange(6, 14),                Agility = StatRange(10, 22),                Voracity = StatRange(10, 18),                Stomach = StatRange(8, 16),


Gryphons:          BodySize = 24,            StomachSize = 30,            ExpMultiplier = 1.75f,            PowerAdjustment = 2f,
                Strength = StatRange(8, 20),                Dexterity = StatRange(12, 18),                Endurance = StatRange(16, 20),                Mind = StatRange(12, 16),
                Will = StatRange(10, 22),                Agility = StatRange(16, 26),                Voracity = StatRange(10, 18),                Stomach = StatRange(10, 14),

The only stats that Gryphons are better than Wyverns and Harvesters with are Body Size (that won't matter much after few levels) and Dexterity. As traits go, I didn't give them anything too powerful. Combat affecting traits are only flight (kinda obvious), intimidating (one that actually gives them some advantage), charge (that only makes them move faster for two turns to simulate their skydiving that many birds of prey do in real world). They are also kinda balanced out by greedy trait making them not regurgitate allies.


You underestimate just how much size and belly capacity skew results and the base power of a race. One look at the birdcat stats and i could see they were absolute units.
wyverns and harvests are already extremely strong platforms with their increased stats, and going even further beyond them makesa really overpowered unit. Let me do a breakdown of how this affects balance!~

Base stats for normie units are
10 units size
15 units base stomach. Therefore, at level 1 they can eat 1 other unit. Wyverns, by being size 18, are immune to being eaten by freshly hired level 1 troops! Being immune to being eaten means a unit can't be swallowed, and a unit that isn't swallowed will continue to damage enemy units, and fill it's belly if it has space, further reducing enemy numbers. This compounds with their stomach size. the more a unit eats at once, the harder to eat it and stop its rampage. Even if you have a unit that can fit a dragon in it's belly: while you're weakening the dragon it's eating your units, making itself bigger than 100 size and therefore impossible to nom by your unit that just barely had room to fit it.

Sheer size and belly capacity are the reason dragons are the most powerful single unit in the game, period. they easily eat several units their own level that are smaller than them in a lot of situations.
Going to gryphons, 24 bulk is bigger than 2 standard units, and multiplies when trying to eat multiple prey significantly. 2 griffins need approx. as much belly space as 5 normal units which is super hard for normal units to reach. a base level griffin also can get 30 more units of mass by eating making it up to 54 bulk at level 1, while a base unit can mac out at 25, but realistically usually caps at 20 as most units are either 10-12 or 18+.
I'd argue that saying body size doesnt matter after a few levels is very, very wrong. with default leveling especially, getting a lot of capacity for 1 griffin is doable for a unit, but the second and third and fourth griffin don't fit so easily, making your army more vulnerable to the birdcats' large stomachs that will not be so merciful. Most mid tier or powerful base units rarely get past 40 stomach capacity in my experience, minus a couple of the early game survivors and the leader.

30 base stomach is a standard minimum size for the powerful special mercenaries of which only 1 can exist of each unit in a world at a time, and this multiples with stomach capacity.
For example a normal unit with 24 stomach stat and base 15 stomach size can eat 3 standard size 10 units.
A dragon with 24 stomach stat can eat 16 normal units, the equivalent of an entire ARMY at base settings!
Gryphons, special mercs, harvesters, etc with 24 stomach can house 6 normal units.

I would argue harvesters are a special exception of a monster race with insane stomach capacity, however they at least get a nerf with slow digestion, making their stomachs do less damage with that high capacity. Gryphons just gulp em down and grind em up like a special merc.
Wyverns are a really strong unit, so are sharks, etc. going as far as we have with base stats, a griffin is essentially packing double the size and stomach of normal unit.
Greedy also doesn't come into play all too often, and is more of a thematic trait in and of itself.

Personal thoughts more rooted in subjective opinions: personally I would think griffins and wyverns were close in size, griffins typically being about lion or sized and wyverns similarly around there. I'd personally have said 18-20 body and 18-20 stomach would have been fine for a strong monster platform. currently they're really OP as a bigger stomach accepts prey more readily, and bigger meals go into stomachs less easily, not even accounting for limits.

Example, I put 1 zoey against 2 cats with identical nom chance: 54% each when their stats are matched up.
I changed 1 cat into a gryphon with cheats, using the same stats, and the nom chance on the gryphon unit dropped to a noticeably lower 41% chance. Changing it into a dragon dropped it from 41, to a mere 18% chance.

Of course, one can modify these stats on the fly now thanks to race editor, but i feel the base stats could do with a nerf for people who keep it vanilla. Then people who want the old powerful griffs can just set their size back up to 24/30. Or set their default army size to lower than other monsters, instead of 8 to 12, maybe 5 to 8?

thanks for coming to my TED talk on vorewar balance: stomach size and body size.
Fun fact: gryphon has 1 correct pronunciation, but 3 correct spellings! Griffin, griffon, gryphon. I grew up with griffin and my hands are freezing cold so sometimes i got lazy on the spelling and went with the one with the most same letters, sorry!
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby Micadi » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:03 pm

GramzonTheDragon wrote: ...

That's a very good explanation and I have no other choice than to agree to it after reading it. Personally though I considered base wyverns in vorewar to be relatively small (since they fly and stand upright, not on all limbs like typical wyverns) while imagining gryphons to be sized somewhere between a rhino and an elephant, definitely much bigger than a lion. They are fantasy creatures after all so every world can portray them differently. I can agree nerfing them to lets say 20 size and 24 stomach in light of this situation, I hope that's enough. I will also remember this for future races of course. I have a lot of ideas and good explanations like these definitely help in design process, so thank you for taking your time and writing this here.
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby GramzonTheDragon » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:44 pm

Micadi wrote:
GramzonTheDragon wrote: ...

That's a very good explanation and I have no other choice than to agree to it after reading it. Personally though I considered base wyverns in vorewar to be relatively small (since they fly and stand upright, not on all limbs like typical wyverns) while imagining gryphons to be sized somewhere between a rhino and an elephant, definitely much bigger than a lion. They are fantasy creatures after all so every world can portray them differently. I can agree nerfing them to lets say 20 size and 24 stomach in light of this situation, I hope that's enough. I will also remember this for future races of course. I have a lot of ideas and good explanations like these definitely help in design process, so thank you for taking your time and writing this here.

Thanks for reading my long winded text wall. I'm kind of the opposite, if only due to dnd bias. For example a dnd wyvern can be upright yet still weighs 2000 pounds while being a large creature. A griffon is also a larger creature but only weight 500 pounds. While for personal world things I'd make them about equal, about horse size, which is a little smaller than my dragons would be on average. To each their own I guess.

Also, while i have you on the line: As a griffin fan myself, do you plan on adding larger stomach sprites?
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby Micadi » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:05 pm

GramzonTheDragon wrote:Thanks for reading my long winded text wall. I'm kind of the opposite, if only due to dnd bias. For example a dnd wyvern can be upright yet still weighs 2000 pounds while being a large creature. A griffon is also a larger creature but only weight 500 pounds. While for personal world things I'd make them about equal, about horse size, which is a little smaller than my dragons would be on average. To each their own I guess.

Also, while i have you on the line: As a griffin fan myself, do you plan on adding larger stomach sprites?


Oh boy, you are actually not the only one to ask me this, so now I am even more sad that I have to refuse. At this point in time I'm still very new to making sprites and it takes a long time for me to make bigger ones. I was able to complete so many races in last two months only because I was using all of my free time to do so. And I'm currently bursting with many more ideas, there are so many things that I want to make while feeling that I have not enough time to complete them. I have over 20 possible races written down and started working on the new one just an hour ago. At some point I even considered doing a poll for vore war players to chose what I should focus on next but ultimately decided against it since I would feel getting ahead of myself by doing so. If I manage to improve my abilities I might revisit old projects in the future but right now I want to jump from one idea to the next as quickly as possible (as long as the overall quality won't suffer of course).
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Re: Vore War V27

Postby Aurilika » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:45 pm

gigaredpanther wrote:I gotta say, the new gryphons are real tough bastards! I like to play with rules that make it so 'monster' encounters don't despawn after defeating a garrison. I try to play a game using the new races, and, uh... The driders got eaten by gryphons. All of them. An enire faction taken down solely by gryphons at default scaling, spawn rate, etc.

I'm really glad you can rebalance the game yourself. As much as I love being gobbled up by cute wildlife, it was really getting out of hand! Lowered the spawn rate and gave them the 'Foolish' trait. That made the game much less of a catbird apocalypse scenario.

I love them! Really. But YIKES!


Okay, lowering their power somewhat with this patch.

Randulf wrote:I know the game was just updated but would a small addition to the map editor be possible?
I for the life of me cannot find where some villages are not connected to others on my map so it would be nice if the game showed you what villages are affected
Also a very small QoL thing would be to make right click in the map editor make the tile the cursor is under the selected tile

Okay, addressed both of those things.

Turbotowns wrote:What about the adaptive biology thing?
Also, was it requested that the ai to ai diplomacy message stays up for longer/indefinitely(like the unit revolt/defection message)?
And is there a way to check our current imprinted soldier?

I wrote it down, but forgot to mention it, so that's fixed. As well as both of those things as well (The longer messages I just made into an external flag because I really feel like 90 seconds if you're playing and 12 seconds if you're not feel generous. So now there's an external flag to make both of those permanent)
shaw843 wrote:The leader trait section hasn't been removed has it? I only see text bars for male, female, and herm.

It's still there. The Leader trait is only in the content settings window, not in the race editor.

MarkusFreeman320 wrote:K, I've discovered a glitch, if in a town you select level up with no unit selected, the screen grays out but no menu pops up, and you can't interact with the game anymore, however if you go to close the game a pop up still asks if you're sure you want to quit.

Well, you're not supposed to be able to click that at all with no selection, so I've fixed it from both ends, you shouldn't be able to click it when you're not supposed to, and even if there's a way to click it that didn't occur to me, it shouldn't dim your window if you do.

bahamut24 wrote:is it too much to ask for disable/enable either soft or hard lv cap?

Do you mean changing them mid-game? They can enable and disable them at the start of a game, to disable, just leave them as they are, at level 999, to enable just make them the desired levels.

GramzonTheDragon wrote:Fun fact: gryphon has 1 correct pronunciation, but 3 correct spellings! Griffin, griffon, gryphon. I grew up with griffin and my hands are freezing cold so sometimes i got lazy on the spelling and went with the one with the most same letters, sorry!

I went with gryphon, because that's what I'm used to from warcraft 3, after seeing that it was also a correct term for them, and not just a fictionalized term from that game. I remember Griffins from other places, including magic carpet. I'd forgotten there was also a third term.

Figured I'd go ahead and fix up bugs and add some requested minor features.

27A:
Right clicking in the map editor now sets the currently active tile type to the type you're hovering over (only does base terrain)
The imprint screen now gives you the level and exp of the last saved imprint.
Map editor now says which two villages it's having trouble finding a path between, with their locations (added the coordinates of all villages to their tooltip to help out in that regard as well.)
Fixed an issue where the level up button was sometimes clickable without a unit selected, and that it would softlock the game.
Nerfed gryphons stats a little bit to make them a little bit less powerful. Note that if you've edited them manually, or even viewed their page in the race editor, it will keep your current settings, but you can go in there and reset that race to default to force it to its new levels if it doesn't do it automatically.
Adaptive biology and assimilate no longer can take the prey trait (because that kind of ruins the point of them)
Made the defection system that's always been in, optional. You can turn it off as a whole in content settings, or give individual units the Loyal trait to disable it on a race by race basis. It's also worth noting that the system doesn't work great with replaced races, and considers an empire to be its original race (that would require some system redesign to fix, and possibly introduce a number of bugs, so I'm just leaving it as it is.)
Adjusted it so that the prey flag should correctly be removed when traits are updated, unless it was specifically added or removed. (If you had all males as prey for example, and changed a male to female, the prey trait would still be on there, now it updates properly)
Fixed the text being flipped for the drider and alraune specials.
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby Turbotowns » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:11 pm

Being able to change how much exp and levels leaders lose when they die, mid game would be nice.
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby Persona59523 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:11 pm

If.you don't mind me asking, I would like to quickly edit all races stats at the same time instead of spending 20 minutes changing all the race stats to 9999
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby BMUd8854 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:28 pm

I don't know if this has been thrown around or not, but have you ever thought of giving bees a second stomach since they have that pouch-looking thing behind them? Another thing, have you ever thought of making some transparency with the slimes, like blurred outlines of the character they swallowed (in a smaller scale of course) and then darkening of the belly (representing blood from broken down body) to signify the digestion process? Would be neat to see in the game.
Feel free to critique my work so I can improve in the future.
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby Turbotowns » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:21 am

Also, a way to eradicate monsters without outright editing the map... was that discussed? Maybe give them caves that can be destroyed/conquered(maybe becomes a lesser mine or base)?
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby bahamut24 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:40 am

what i mean is: i would like no level cap, stuck at 999 is okay but i like to go beyond for laugh. highest i could is 999 when i would like go for 9999 or so
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby SmeetReaper » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:08 pm

anyone ever think of coming up with a special race or merch that is rather weak and is not good for up close combat but has the ability to like unbirth enemy's but INSTEAD of DIGESTING what it dose is it turns the devoured enemy into another one of its kind that is in a sense more developed for like getting up in the enemys faces and fighting and these guys are incapable of digesting enemy's but instead act like....well drones i guess meaning they go out to find prey beat them down then devour them in some way so they can carry them back to the brood mother for them to convert into more fighters they naturally would target downed units/corpses also to do this makeing them a bit of a challenge if your not that prepared and being they are like that this merch would be something that spawns on the map like the goblins but just wanders around and dose not go directly after people and to be able to gain the ability to hire one of these "brood mothers" you will have to defeat the randomly spawned one first
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby MarkusFreeman320 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:09 pm

Aurilika wrote:
MarkusFreeman320 wrote:K, I've discovered a glitch, if in a town you select level up with no unit selected, the screen grays out but no menu pops up, and you can't interact with the game anymore, however if you go to close the game a pop up still asks if you're sure you want to quit.

Well, you're not supposed to be able to click that at all with no selection, so I've fixed it from both ends, you shouldn't be able to click it when you're not supposed to, and even if there's a way to click it that didn't occur to me, it shouldn't dim your window if you do.

If you have used the shop or level up in a town with an army, then select a different town, then you can hit level up even though no soldier is selected https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... Glitch.JPG

And if you do click level up here, then it greys out, stops you from doing anything and forces you to close the game (without a chance to save) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... litch2.JPG

Also I'm not sure the willing species trait is working correctly, as it still seems to be 90% unwilling kicking and screaming fluff text, both when being nommed and when being digested.
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby SmeetReaper » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:03 pm

i forgot to ask this also and before i say anything i'm not meaning to sound like a ass or be a hater or anything but um are the "cake" enemy's ever going to be removed or replaced with something more....interesting? i mean like i said i'm not wanting to look like a ass or be a hater its just well yea the idea of getting eaten by a cake instead of eating it is kinda funny and ironic but that's really all the cake enemy has going for it they have no bulges when digesting prey they have only one vore type attack they have no appeal i mean the cakes were fun i guess and funny for awhile but all they kinda are these days i think are a reminder of back when the npc somewhat environmental enemy's first came out hell why not improve them in a way like give them a new male/female sprite some more vore ability's like cv for males/herm's/ect for turning prey into fresh sugary icing to paint the floor with and unbirthing for the f/h maybe make them have a special ability that triggers their sprite to change from the improved one to the old one as the ability makes them get down on the floor and morph to look like a harmless tasty cake and they get like stuck in that spot for the time that's active and for maybe 2 turns a circular area around them maybe 2-3 blocks long/wide will be made to have a chance to put a luring effect on enemy's that go through the effected area making them stop what they were doing before and instead start moving closer to the cake effects starting off with just luring them in and as they get closer they start getting debuffs that make a vore attempt on them more likely to succeed and their struggles become weaker and the cake can then actually attempt to vore the enemy when they get right up beside them
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby GramzonTheDragon » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:08 pm

Gryphon is definitely the most popular among games, furries and bronies, while I usually see Griffin in more historical contexts or names of real companies/etc. Griffon is exceptionally rare.

SmeetReaper wrote:i forgot to ask this also and before i say anything i'm not meaning to sound like a ass or be a hater or anything but um are the "cake" enemy's ever going to be removed or replaced with something more....interesting? i mean like i said i'm not wanting to look like a ass or be a hater its just well yea the idea of getting eaten by a cake instead of eating it is kinda funny and ironic but that's really all the cake enemy has going for it they have no bulges when digesting prey they have only one vore type attack they have no appeal i mean the cakes were fun i guess and funny for awhile but all they kinda are these days i think are a reminder of back when the npc somewhat environmental enemy's first came out hell why not improve them in a way like give them a new male/female sprite some more vore ability's like cv for males/herm's/ect for turning prey into fresh sugary icing to paint the floor with and unbirthing for the f/h maybe make them have a special ability that triggers their sprite to change from the improved one to the old one as the ability makes them get down on the floor and morph to look like a harmless tasty cake and they get like stuck in that spot for the time that's active and for maybe 2 turns a circular area around them maybe 2-3 blocks long/wide will be made to have a chance to put a luring effect on enemy's that go through the effected area making them stop what they were doing before and instead start moving closer to the cake effects starting off with just luring them in and as they get closer they start getting debuffs that make a vore attempt on them more likely to succeed and their struggles become weaker and the cake can then actually attempt to vore the enemy when they get right up beside them

I thought the cakes were just a joke celebration for the popularity of the game, not a serious unit expected to hang around as a wild spawn
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Re: Vore War V27A

Postby SmeetReaper » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:03 pm

same here but yet they are still around and to be honest i think a improved cake mob could be possible as they would kinda maybe be like the slimes a little and also i have seen people with characters that are like sentient cotton candy or chocolate and even weirder things its impressive just how malleable and twerk-able the aspects of a slime is you can nearly make a slime versioon of anything with them as long as the material they are to be made of is semi-solid in form or not solid and i do believe icing is a semi solid and then there's "ice-cream cakes" and i think i even seen some kinda cake made with pudding i think somewhere
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