Vore War V39

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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby GramzonTheDragon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 pm

The vore balance changes are kinda weird. Especially of note is that big characters, 60+ body size especially take exponentially more acid damage than normal units. wherea normal unit was taking 6 damage on first cycle, a selicia took 17! And surface area doesn't matter too much when you consider that they have more surface area, but they also have significantly more bulk relative to the surface area so if anything they would take less, unless you also scale their health back significantly. Currently having a higher escape chance for being bigger is actually worse because they digest so fast they take the low health penalty to escaping. It'd just be better to ignore size as long as the filled stomach isn't overloaded like with diminishment and the large prey isn't dead yet. i'd roll back the extra damage for big critters at least. Like if my 2 characters that will eventually get into the game fought the anthro shark would cause the large drake to evaporate if she ate her, while the shark girl could have a good chance of crawling out.

I also agree voracity is weird, even units at 30% hp or so are not easy to swallow even with below average will. similar units tend to have only a 40-55% chance to get gulped, and this is on top of it being hard for prey to keep down. also noted was a level 20 unit against level 1s was getting extremely similar swallow chances to a level 50 unit against the same thing. 30 levels of difference only changed the chances of swallowing from an average of 75-80% to 80-88%, where before a high level unit was free to gulp down far inferior units which was nice.

Really i'd revert most of these things except the escape chance buff, as it IS a vore game after all, and the update's mostly just made it harder to see bellies on the field as units escape easier, and are harder to get in there in the first place to enjoy a unit's predatory exploits.

Or maybe i'm just traumatized by the amount of 70-90% hit chances i see fail to swallow or damage a unit im targeting and don't want to see any more when i could be seeing the old comforting 97-100% odds.
-----

On another note regarding balpance though, have you considered making a change to have a "minimum level" setting? for example, all newly spawned and hired units have their base level set to something, like say level 10, that way units that gain just a few levels don't become so dominant very quickly, and gives a less steep power curve. It would be another slider deal. it could also just change the base stats for level 1 units, like say a level 1 unit's starting stats are the equivalent of the stats of a unit created at level 10 in pure tac mode for a given strategic game.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby VLover552 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:45 pm

I'd say make then new system optional or something so people can decide if they want to use it or not
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Katar » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:20 pm

In regards to multi-race armies I know that I for one like more "purity" in a faction's armies. I'd suggest either a multi-race faction or perhaps having the AI intentionally make "Adventuring party" sized armies that are smaller but hire higher leveled troops of different races.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Aurilika » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:22 pm

GramzonTheDragon wrote:The vore balance changes are kinda weird. Especially of note is that big characters, 60+ body size especially take exponentially more acid damage than normal units. wherea normal unit was taking 6 damage on first cycle, a selicia took 17! And surface area doesn't matter too much when you consider that they have more surface area, but they also have significantly more bulk relative to the surface area so if anything they would take less, unless you also scale their health back significantly. Currently having a higher escape chance for being bigger is actually worse because they digest so fast they take the low health penalty to escaping. It'd just be better to ignore size as long as the filled stomach isn't overloaded like with diminishment and the large prey isn't dead yet. i'd roll back the extra damage for big critters at least. Like if my 2 characters that will eventually get into the game fought the anthro shark would cause the large drake to evaporate if she ate her, while the shark girl could have a good chance of crawling out.

I also agree voracity is weird, even units at 30% hp or so are not easy to swallow even with below average will. similar units tend to have only a 40-55% chance to get gulped, and this is on top of it being hard for prey to keep down. also noted was a level 20 unit against level 1s was getting extremely similar swallow chances to a level 50 unit against the same thing. 30 levels of difference only changed the chances of swallowing from an average of 75-80% to 80-88%, where before a high level unit was free to gulp down far inferior units which was nice.

Really i'd revert most of these things except the escape chance buff, as it IS a vore game after all, and the update's mostly just made it harder to see bellies on the field as units escape easier, and are harder to get in there in the first place to enjoy a unit's predatory exploits.

Or maybe i'm just traumatized by the amount of 70-90% hit chances i see fail to swallow or damage a unit im targeting and don't want to see any more when i could be seeing the old comforting 97-100% odds.
-----

On another note regarding balpance though, have you considered making a change to have a "minimum level" setting? for example, all newly spawned and hired units have their base level set to something, like say level 10, that way units that gain just a few levels don't become so dominant very quickly, and gives a less steep power curve. It would be another slider deal. it could also just change the base stats for level 1 units, like say a level 1 unit's starting stats are the equivalent of the stats of a unit created at level 10 in pure tac mode for a given strategic game.


Well, part of it was just changing the system as a whole to make it simpler to work with and reason about, now you can boost the attacker's score by 25% easily, rather than applying a -.2 to the defender bonus shift and see where that ends up. (Which also makes it presentable to the player at some point, i.e. this unit has a vore attack strength of 175 points for numbers geeks (like me)) I guess part of it is the different people want to see it move in various ways. I plan to make the formulas more similar to the old ways, but then probably make them user configurable to an extent (i.e higher/lower vore odds, higher/lower escape chance). I find myself liking the style that's more unpredictable as it's more interesting, but I understand not everyone likes that style. Part of the changes were that every unit always has at least some odds to vore now (as long as the target fits), as vore is 0-100%, rather than -80% to 100%.

Bigger units taking more damage is partially because bigger units tend to have a lot more hitpoints, so this was probably a response to that, but I'll reduce it's effect and possibly eliminate it. I plan some large scale changes to it based on feedback.

Minimum levels could work, though it sounds like what you want is just to lower the impact of levels without actually slowing down leveling speed.

VLover552 wrote:I'd say make then new system optional or something so people can decide if they want to use it or not

If I can't get it to a place where everyone likes it, or at least able to customize it to like it, I probably will. It was designed to make things simpler to understand for me and for others so I'd like to keep that if at all possible, but I'm not going to die on that sword.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Turbotowns » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:40 am

Okay so... a scenario for you... an army faces off against and enemy army(no duh), BUT there are SEVERAL more enemy armies waiting... You have some important units in this attacking army(like the leader), that no matter how strong would eventually fall to the sheer numbers of the enemy armies(now reinforcements ARE on the way... but they won't arrive in time), so... maybe you want the army, to fall back, to retreat, to FLEE... but they win their first fight(barely, there are only a few units left), thus, any units you tried to have flee... immediately return to the army... what's a commander to do?

Solution! If the enemy army starts fleeing!(like if the message that they are now retreating appears in the log, and they start to fall back), any units on the WINNING side that flees(something they would not have any reason to do except...), they stay fled, and makes their way back to the nearest village like normal. This is so, you can dismiss units(like the leader, which you can ONLY do in battle), back to safety before a subsequent fight takes place(just because they won that fight(barely), doesn't mean they'll win the next, and having to wait 8 turns(or 4 with the EvasiveBattler trait), is a bit... risky to say the least).(I guess an alternate solution would to be just make the leader dismissable outside of villages... but that might break something, and I feel that this should be a logical method, like imagine a scenario: a fight is won, but they decide to send some units back for healing, or to carry a message while the rest of the army carries on. And this would alloy such a tactic to be done... DURING AN ENEMY'S TURN(cause then the winning army could end up in another fight IMMEDIATELY, and this could help save some units, while the remaining army stays back to hold them off, like you see so many times)).
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby dddddd2 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:18 am

Now that I've played it, I still think the direction about vore mechanics change is good but the numbers can certainly use some adjustments.
It's too hard to vore yet too easy for prey to escape now (especially obvious when fighting monsters, they just keep escaping even at very low health), and I too think the larger unit shouldn't take more digest damage even purely from (my) fetish point of view - I like the pred to take more time gurgling their massive prey, indicating how big of a meal the prey is making.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby DisguisedQQ » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:29 am

How about some AP changes for escaping units? Like halving AP for successfuly escaping unit so they won't instantly flee off battle on high levels and giving freed units some AP to fight or run? Give them equal rights!!! XD
PS. Turbo, just remembered another game with AI vs AI, Liberty or Death on sega.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Turbotowns » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:05 am

DisguisedQQ wrote:How about some AP changes for escaping units? Like halving AP for successfuly escaping unit so they won't instantly flee off battle on high levels and giving freed units some AP to fight or run? Give them equal rights!!! XD
PS. Turbo, just remembered another game with AI vs AI, Liberty or Death on sega.


Another one I've never heard of. XD
I didn't really have a retro childhood. My first console was an xbox.
(Granted nowadays I AM hearing about SOME ancient games... but not many.) XD
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Re: Vore War V23

Postby Anesthetic » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:34 am

Anesthetic wrote:Woah? Did Voreacity take a SAVAGE nerf?
I've got 20th level characters with 130 Voracity, trying to swallow level 4 characters at Half health, and only having a 56% chance to get them down.

As I've said, these are a work in progress, I do plan to make some more tweaking to it.

So wait I'm confused. Does that mean that this was infact an intentional Nerf to the Voracity skill? Or is it a bug?
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Re: Vore War V23

Postby Dragonvorelover135 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:20 am

Anesthetic wrote:So wait I'm confused. Does that mean that this was infact an intentional Nerf to the Voracity skill? Or is it a bug?


No there were not any intentional nerfs or buffs. The system was completely revamped so there's a need for adjusting values in it based on feedback to get it properly balanced.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby GramzonTheDragon » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:39 pm

Animated bellies don't seem to be working properly, tested with dragons. i couldn't get them to animate.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Turbotowns » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:22 pm

Question, Auri, will this plant race you mention? What will be it's classification? Civilized(The actual "playable" races, the ones with cities, and a "leader"), Mercenary(Can only be acquired through a mercenary tile or a city Inn(but that might change(ah, then alternatively: Does not roam their own army))), or Monster(Roams with their own armies, can't change/add equipment)?

(And what do you think of these "classes" or "tags"? With different kinds of races, I figured they're necessary, especially when asking about ones in development(like my first question)(and could maybe go into the help section?). They definitely need some work, but it's a start.)
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Dragonvorelover135 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:31 pm

Turbotowns wrote:Question, Auri, will this plant race you mention? What will be it's classification? Civilized(The actual "playable" races, the ones with cities, and a "leader"), Mercenary(Can only be acquired through a mercenary tile or a city Inn(but that might change(ah, then alternatively: Does not roam their own army))), or Monster(Roams with their own armies, can't change/add equipment)?

(And what do you think of these "classes" or "tags"? With different kinds of races, I figured they''re necessary, especially when asking about ones in development(like my first question)(and could maybe go into the help section?). They definitely need some work, but it's a start.)


It's a plant monster species. They are going to be another roaming monster addition.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Turbotowns » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:02 pm

Dragonvorelover135 wrote:
Turbotowns wrote:Question, Auri, will this plant race you mention? What will be it's classification? Civilized(The actual "playable" races, the ones with cities, and a "leader"), Mercenary(Can only be acquired through a mercenary tile or a city Inn(but that might change(ah, then alternatively: Does not roam their own army))), or Monster(Roams with their own armies, can't change/add equipment)?

(And what do you think of these "classes" or "tags"? With different kinds of races, I figured they''re necessary, especially when asking about ones in development(like my first question)(and could maybe go into the help section?). They definitely need some work, but it's a start.)


It's a plant monster species. They are going to be another roaming monster addition.


Afraid of that... We haven't had a Civilized race in such a long time(though maybe the Mercenary races will become civilized(I remember people talking about that, and green slime talking about drawing up some village sprites for them)).
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby GramzonTheDragon » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:24 pm

Turbotowns wrote:
Dragonvorelover135 wrote:
Turbotowns wrote:Question, Auri, will this plant race you mention? What will be it's classification? Civilized(The actual "playable" races, the ones with cities, and a "leader"), Mercenary(Can only be acquired through a mercenary tile or a city Inn(but that might change(ah, then alternatively: Does not roam their own army))), or Monster(Roams with their own armies, can't change/add equipment)?

(And what do you think of these "classes" or "tags"? With different kinds of races, I figured they''re necessary, especially when asking about ones in development(like my first question)(and could maybe go into the help section?). They definitely need some work, but it's a start.)


It's a plant monster species. They are going to be another roaming monster addition.


Afraid of that... We haven't had a Civilized race in such a long time(though maybe the Mercenary races will become civilized(I remember people talking about that, and green slime talking about drawing up some village sprites for them)).

I was hoping to possibly commission a mainline shark anthro race, though that could be a good ways off still. depending on other comms and my 2 unique mercs in the queue.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby RichardDix » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Turbotowns wrote:Afraid of that... We haven't had a Civilized race in such a long time(though maybe the Mercenary races will become civilized(I remember people talking about that, and green slime talking about drawing up some village sprites for them)).

I really hope there are some more playable races soon as well, monsters and mercenaries aren't enough to catch my interest anymore sadly :( . Would love to see mercenaries as playable races though, so hopefully that rumor comes true.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Misterio » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:21 pm

There is a way to edit the files to add more hairstyles or more accesories in to the game? It would be great if you can edit and add custom ones in some way.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Anesthetic » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:16 pm

So plant people, does that me we are getting Florans?
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Turbotowns » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:45 pm

Anesthetic wrote:So plant people, does that me we are getting Florans?


I wish, sounds like it's just another monster race actually.
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Re: Vore War V23A

Postby Aurilika » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:41 pm

Turbotowns wrote:Solution! If the enemy army starts fleeing!(like if the message that they are now retreating appears in the log, and they start to fall back), any units on the WINNING side that flees(something they would not have any reason to do except...), they stay fled, and makes their way back to the nearest village like normal. This is so, you can dismiss units(like the leader, which you can ONLY do in battle), back to safety before a subsequent fight takes place(just because they won that fight(barely), doesn't mean they'll win the next, and having to wait 8 turns(or 4 with the EvasiveBattler trait), is a bit... risky to say the least).(I guess an alternate solution would to be just make the leader dismissable outside of villages... but that might break something, and I feel that this should be a logical method, like imagine a scenario: a fight is won, but they decide to send some units back for healing, or to carry a message while the rest of the army carries on. And this would alloy such a tactic to be done... DURING AN ENEMY'S TURN(cause then the winning army could end up in another fight IMMEDIATELY, and this could help save some units, while the remaining army stays back to hold them off, like you see so many times)).


This is a good idea, I'll add it in (A should your fled units regroup or keep fleeing option).

DisguisedQQ wrote:How about some AP changes for escaping units? Like halving AP for successfuly escaping unit so they won't instantly flee off battle on high levels and giving freed units some AP to fight or run? Give them equal rights!!! XD


That is also a good idea, It makes sense that they would be freed with limited ap (perhaps 2-4?, enough to fight back or move, but not fly off)

Anesthetic wrote:So wait I'm confused. Does that mean that this was infact an intentional Nerf to the Voracity skill? Or is it a bug?

I sort of rushed the system in slightly, to have something to show for the patch, the intended changes were the ones in the changelog, everything else was changes as part of the system change. This patch addresses some of those issues.

GramzonTheDragon wrote:Animated bellies don't seem to be working properly, tested with dragons. i couldn't get them to animate.

I'll check it out.

Turbotowns wrote:(And what do you think of these "classes" or "tags"? With different kinds of races, I figured they're necessary, especially when asking about ones in development(like my first question)(and could maybe go into the help section?). They definitely need some work, but it's a start.)


When I reference races I usually call them Main Race/Mainline Race, Mercenary, or Monster.

Misterio wrote:There is a way to edit the files to add more hairstyles or more accesories in to the game? It would be great if you can edit and add custom ones in some way.


There is not, currently, aside from editing the actual source project itself. I'm probably going to need to try to simplify and/or make the graphics more editable, as there's a growing tsunami of sprites being worked on (I think there's at least 7 people apparently working on sprites), and that's one of the parts I like working on the least (partly because I have to do a lot of guessing and interpreting how things are intended to be and make a decent number of mistakes in that process.)

Version 23B Released:

Improved the vore formulas and fixed up a few bugs.

23B:
Did some adjustments to the newer vore formulas:
Escape is slightly less likely at all levels, and considerably less likely at very low health values
Formulas have been adjusted so that early level ups don't affect them as much, and significant stat differences have a more pronounced effect (to have a feel more like the previous system)
Vore odds again decrease as predators fill up with prey (accidentally forgot to include that part)
Stomach damage has tweaked to better keep up as units gain levels (though a level 10 digesting a level 10 will still take longer than a level 1 digesting a level 1)
Fixed some miscellaneous rare exceptions. (Including updating the windows versions to come with the Userdata and saves and maps folders instead of creating them when first run (To try to fix a super rare exception that's probably related to permissions))
Fix that running out of mana for a unit can cause buttons in that slot to be disabled for other units instead of correctly resetting when a new unit was selected.
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