Should we ban vore from DeviantArt?

[Merodi]

Put a mature filter on your kink art, regardless of the kink, and block people who insult you if replying with a witty joke doesn't shut them up. That's what I've been doing for years, and it's working out fine.

[Jayezox]

At most, DeviantArt should require fetish art to have the mature filter. Even then, that's really up to them especially considering other subjects like furries, for example, can be a fetish but aren't always, are way more common, and exist on other heavily censored media like national TV.

[VoraciousArtistry]

I'm sure your aware what Deviant means, and I'm certain that you are aware that DA started out just like furaffinity and other image posting sites, hell most of DA was fetish art when I signed up around 10 years ago. The constant whinging little sacks of shit will always be there, hating and despising because it's against their moral code or beliefs. Thing is, Deviancy is meant to incite a reaction, it wasn't that long ago that homosexuals were considered to be deviant by the broader community as a whole. People will always have differing views but there is no reason to get rid of an active community if the moderators don't want to.

[LucifersChef]

The site has no policy against adult art, and fetish art is really just that.

"You agree not to use the Service: for any unlawful purposes;
* to upload, post, or otherwise transmit any material that is obscene, offensive, blasphemous, pornographic, unlawful, threatening, menacing, abusive, harmful, an invasion of privacy or publicity rights, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, illegal or otherwise objectionable;"

[sweetladyamy]

I'm only trying to stop people from actively hating on people for drawing what they want to draw; fuckin' A, calm down.

And...no to that. Why? Because I'm sick and tired of people trying to POWER-MOD-HAMMER this Socialist Fear-Mongering BULLSHIT, okay!?

You agree not to use the Service: for any unlawful purposes;
* to upload, post, or otherwise transmit any material that is obscene, offensive, blasphemous, pornographic, unlawful, threatening, menacing, abusive, harmful, an invasion of privacy or publicity rights, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, illegal or otherwise objectionable...

In which, that would be anything. Deviant Art's Terms of Service is long overdue for an OVERHAUL.


--------------------------------------

If you people cannot be respectful when you dislike something, then you should NOT be allowed to speak of it. I was raised on free speech being a privilege, and it really does work better that way.

Anyway, I've been trolled in the past by these haters, and I put the staff of Deviant Art on notice that the next time would equal legal ramifications, and that applies across the board. Luckily, it hasn't happened yet, but it is like a time bomb set to go off in ??:??:??

Put a mature filter on your kink art, regardless of the kink, and block people who insult you if replying with a witty joke doesn't shut them up. That's what I've been doing for years, and it's working out fine.

Need a Maturity Rating System instead of a binary switch, that runs on a scale (0-5 would be fine).

[Doku]

For once, I'm not going to be the gloom and doom voice I usually am. Obviously, the topic is more about whether or not artists of fetish material should be encouraged not to post on deviantart, not specifically Vore. I think it's important that we make the distinction that this is more about general fetish artists than it is about Vore as a singular concern, because in well over 12 years of having observed that website, I have seen no trends that indicate anti-fetishist sentiment is any worse today than it was when I started looking.

1) First of all, the premise that Deviantart is for "Normal Art" is now, and always has been flawed. Fetishist material and exotic erotica have always been present on the website. There are simply rules about what precisely can be posted. So long as an artist avoids posting things that breach those rules, dA has been permissive of unusual art for well nigh onto two decades. Or, put another way, there is a reason it is called "Deviant" art. It isn't simply a joking little commentary. There's always been weird shit there. Entire communities devoted to Supehero/Superheroine peril. Vast swaths of gore artists and torture porn fetishists. Whole artist rings of tentacle artists who censor their art to make it fit dA's rules and give information on how to find the uncensored versions.

The website really isn't a playground for 'legitimate' artists. Many who I have met through conventions are hesitant to use it as a major outlet for their art because of a combination of proprietary rules at the site, the weird and uncensored content found around the site, and the sheer number of amateurs there. It's far from mainstream as a site. There are plenty of mainstream artists, but the site itself is widely mixed.

2) Fetish artists are no more likely to get panned there than anywhere else. Sorry to say, but the only real reason that artists here usually don't get flack is because there are rules and hecklers who disobey those rules can be reported and banned. This is a community wherein the administrators and moderators are expressly members of a single, small fetish and all are generally supportive and protective of that fetish. This means that this place is actively unwelcoming to 'norms' coming here to heckle. Artists here are protected to a lesser degree from active criticism because they draw someone getting eaten.

Anywhere else? All bets are off.

Tumblr, Blogspot, Deviantart, whatever. You name me one of the various websites that permits people to post their art, and so long as the art is relatively easily accessible, there's a fairly good chance that someone, somewhere, has called fetish artists "Sick perverts" or the like. This is simply the price that an artist of this art will pay in posting art of questionably offensive nature to the general populace. Criticism in public, non-protected regions is simply unavoidable. Deviantart is only slightly more active than some other places because it is an old site with a lot of active users on it. That's all. I have seen no indication that it's gotten any worse in the last several years.

3) In fact, on that point: No, it really isn't any better or worse now than a decade ago. I don't really draw 'vore art much anymore as some of you know, and a couple people have bemoaned. It isn't in the direction of my most recent artistic ventures. However, I can say something reasonably certain about my experiences as a low to mid-quality vore artist, that if you aren't making waves with the caliber of your art and you aren't making a scene with how you react to hecklers, you probably won't get heckled much. In fact, you likely won't get noticed that much. You simply aren't worth people's time unles you interest them.

Most of these hecklers are trolls, not people who are personally offended by the mere existence of 'vore. Even if they are offended by that, their heckling is more out of trollish behavior than out of their raw offense. The general user who finds your art offensive will post at most 1 comment, and never come back. They'll report an image if they think it breaks a rule, and then that will be the end of the conversation. You will never see them again, because they don't want to know that you exist. They're going to blip over to artist circles they like, who produce work they're comfortable with and they're going to be happy, and you're going to be happy, and neither of you will ever speak again, if you ever spoke in the first place.

Trolls, on the other hand, will react if they find you entertaining to heckle and that usually comes in the form of "Do you react to them." If you're dealing with a troll, just hide their comments, ignore them and block them from commenting. And then? Move on as if they don't exist. Don't engage hecklers, and they normally go away with time, because you are either too boring for their tastes or strong enough not to be impacted, and therefore not worth their time. They thrive off of low-hanging fruit, and if you don't offer it, they won't work for it. There's plenty of things for them to heckle. Most of them don't bother unless they develop a personal vendetta against you. And for those? Block them and move on.

4) The only artists on deviantart likely to get heckled, lots of reports of their art and complications because they draw fetish material are popular, well-received and skilled artists of a caliber that allows them to command commission fees, usually ones who can legitimately command fees in excess of $40 for a color image. These artists draw large crowds of viewers, which means they're more likely to be seen by general users, which means that their fetish material is more likely to be commented on by people who are negatively disposed and who are not simply generic hecklers. This also means that they are infinitely more likely to be reported. If you are not good, you are a LOT less likely to hit anyone's radar on this site.

I know because I'm not good. People have argued this point with me in the past, and I stand by it. I'm not good. My current stuff is passing fair at best, and I do improve with time. I enjoy drawing, but I'm not a "Good Artist." I almost never get heckled. I had art up for years, multiple years that I determined could have been reported because of how Deviantart interpreted its own rules, and it was never once reported to my knowledge or taken down. I only realized, for example, that my "Yuffie" series from ages ago was subject to Deviantart's rules because another major artist who I like to follow posted a nude of Yuffie from post-Cerberus. It was taken down, FAST, and there were a fairly large number of complaints. The rule as interpreted was that if a character's primary depiction was at any time under 18, even if they were depicted as older later in their material, it was not permissible to post them in a variety of situations. I voluntarily removed all of my Yuffie art from the site at that point, which was not a small quantity in those days. It was all Post-Cerberus stuff and I was careful through body proportions, associated fiction and costuming to make it clear the character was post-Cerberus (and therefore 19), but I know for a fact that doesn't fly with their rules (e.g. Korra can't be drawn in sexual situations on that site. Yes, I'm aware she's fully 18 in two of the five seasons, and 21 in two of the five seasons, and only 17 for part of the first season. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how much you make it clear what age she is through drawing her more adult, more robust body style. You draw her in a sexual pose, and it can and WILL be taken down if reported. I have seen it happen a LOT there.). I strictly attempt to follow their rules, because I signed up and agreed to them as an artist, so I've voluntarily avoided posting certain characters in fetish situations since that interpretation was made clear to me.

But the point is: If you don't hit someone's radar, you're not going to get heckled much, and you won't be reported enough to draw attention. I get a heckler once in a blue moon, for all of a single tag. If they feel persistent, I simply block them and I never hear from them again, and this goes back into the period where most of my art was openly fetish material on deviantart. If you aren't someone like, say, http://karosu-maker.deviantart.com (who was one of the artists that got raked over the coals over Yuffie.) with over 10,000 watchers, well over a million page views, who commands heavy prices for their commissions and regularly draws fetish gore material? You're not on people's radar, not unless you're "fun" to heckle.

Sorry, but you're just not important enough or interesting enough for them to bother with. And, if you're following the letter of the rules and the spirit of their interpretation of them, the mod staff doesn't give a fig about you. Post what you want, when you want. They want a smoothly operating ship that they don't have to think about. You don't force them to look at you, the staff will utterly ignore your very existence. Overall, there is simply no reason to consider deviantart anymore "Off Limits" for posting fetish material than any other site. If you're going to post off-Eka's, the risks are going to be the same regardless, and in all likelihood, nobody will care.

[Doku]

The site has no policy against adult art, and fetish art is really just that.

"You agree not to use the Service: for any unlawful purposes;
* to upload, post, or otherwise transmit any material that is obscene, offensive, blasphemous, pornographic, unlawful, threatening, menacing, abusive, harmful, an invasion of privacy or publicity rights, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, illegal or otherwise objectionable;"

Right, there are specific definitions that the site operates with for the term "Pornography," and they're quite precise in their terminology.

http://help.deviantart.com/251/
http://help.deviantart.com/565/

"A literary work may not detail graphic or explicit sexual intercourse. This includes descriptions of sexual penetration, oral to genital contact, genital to anal contact, oral to anal contact and may also include certain types of genital to genital contact and oral to breast contact.

This prohibition extends to descriptions of bodily fluids associated with sexual acts such as semen and vaginal lubricants"

Erotic nudes, erotic content where someone does not have actual sexual penetration or contact between genitals and/or sex toys? They don't give a fig. In the broader sense of the term "Pornography," they've allowed pornographic material on that site for decades. In the sense of their definition of pornography, they will take it down if it is reported enough. They're pretty lazy and selective about it, though, and they've allowed for "Censored pornography" for a long time so long as the penetration is clearly hidden. Some artists get rather clever with side-shots, and never once get their art removed.

Trust me. There's porn on that site. Just not a lot of what they call porn. I've been watching their interpretations of rules 261 and 565, and seen them in action a lot over the years. They're entirely ok with porn, as long as you obey certain specific elements of those rules... and they don't get a whole bunch of people pissing and moaning at them about a piece of art.

[jaggedjagd]

.....People still use DA?

[Doku]

In which, that would be anything. Deviant Art's Terms of Service is long overdue for an OVERHAUL.

*falls over laughing* That will almost certainly never happen. As long as they can cash the checks on the proceeds the website produces for them with minimal effort, they will never change a thing there. The head staff of the website has always, always been lazy and hypocritically inconsistent about the updating and implementation of their rules. You can determine the way in which they will generally implement them and avoid trouble easily enough, but expecting them to update policies that they've had in place since 2008?

Yeah, that's never happening.

.....People still use DA?

Regularly. Lots of them. Their creators are still making a killing off of the site, considering the amount of financial outlay they actually put in at this point.

[MrLoro]

I wouldn't say vore should be banned on the site, but yes, I wish those artists would move to somewhere else like here; where hate is a lot less common since this site is full of vore lovers. (And I really dislike DA, lol)

It's like a bunch of other sites such as Youtube and e621; There's gonna be a mix reaction of hate and love since other "types" of art are also on there.

tl;dr: No. It's a "target audience" problem or some shit.

[blergle]

No.

If I have to look at human female nudes on DA (and I do have to, very often), then people should have to see vore too. Fair is fair.

[todomatsu]

Meh, I see no problem with it as long as a maturity filter is placed on the art. Nonetheless, I feel like the portal's a MUCH better place to upload vore art since we at least have a blacklist feature.

[TheDevilKira]

People are going to hate on anything they want to hate on, everyone just has to get over that fact, or start the annual purge. I prefer the latter, lol.

[SwallowMe]

Frankly, I think people that object to\get angry over different, odd, and strange things that show up on DeviantArt, they need to go back to some form of language\vocabulary class.
I find mind-boggling how people can go to a site called "Deviant" Art and then throw a fit over bizarre art and interests and call for it not to be on the site.
Also, if the people running the site actually did crack down on fetish art, I would recommend that they change the name of their site because the rules would be a contradiction, be at odds with what the definition of said name represents.

[DontShowMeOnGoogle55555]

After my last thread "Should we ban vore from DeviantArt?" completely fucking bombed, I guess I should rephrase it.

Like I said in that thread, it's become a big issue for fetish artists (and viewers of those artists) that there are SO many people getting triggered and posting hate comments on their art. Hell, there are fucking YOUTUBE VIDEOS dedicated to browsing DeviantArt and saying "HAHA LOOK AT THIS IT'S SO CRINGEY LOLOLOLOLOLOL" and I hate it so much.

I know there's no stopping people from being toxic like this, but perhaps we can cut down on it by encouraging fetish artists to post on actual fetish sites, instead of non-fetish sites like DeviantArt?

The solution to non-acceptance is not to hide behind a walled garden and pretend the non-acceptance doesn't exist. It doesn't work. Historically it has never worked.

That's conflicting with what some other people here are saying. Some are saying to not give a shit about what the haters say, and you're telling me that it doesn't work like that.

[DontShowMeOnGoogle55555]

For once, I'm not going to be the gloom and doom voice I usually am. Obviously, the topic is more about whether or not artists of fetish material should be encouraged not to post on deviantart, not specifically Vore. I think it's important that we make the distinction that this is more about general fetish artists than it is about Vore as a singular concern, because in well over 12 years of having observed that website, I have seen no trends that indicate anti-fetishist sentiment is any worse today than it was when I started looking.

1) First of all, the premise that Deviantart is for "Normal Art" is now, and always has been flawed. Fetishist material and exotic erotica have always been present on the website. There are simply rules about what precisely can be posted. So long as an artist avoids posting things that breach those rules, dA has been permissive of unusual art for well nigh onto two decades. Or, put another way, there is a reason it is called "Deviant" art. It isn't simply a joking little commentary. There's always been weird shit there. Entire communities devoted to Supehero/Superheroine peril. Vast swaths of gore artists and torture porn fetishists. Whole artist rings of tentacle artists who censor their art to make it fit dA's rules and give information on how to find the uncensored versions.

The website really isn't a playground for 'legitimate' artists. Many who I have met through conventions are hesitant to use it as a major outlet for their art because of a combination of proprietary rules at the site, the weird and uncensored content found around the site, and the sheer number of amateurs there. It's far from mainstream as a site. There are plenty of mainstream artists, but the site itself is widely mixed.

2) Fetish artists are no more likely to get panned there than anywhere else. Sorry to say, but the only real reason that artists here usually don't get flack is because there are rules and hecklers who disobey those rules can be reported and banned. This is a community wherein the administrators and moderators are expressly members of a single, small fetish and all are generally supportive and protective of that fetish. This means that this place is actively unwelcoming to 'norms' coming here to heckle. Artists here are protected to a lesser degree from active criticism because they draw someone getting eaten.

Anywhere else? All bets are off.

Tumblr, Blogspot, Deviantart, whatever. You name me one of the various websites that permits people to post their art, and so long as the art is relatively easily accessible, there's a fairly good chance that someone, somewhere, has called fetish artists "Sick perverts" or the like. This is simply the price that an artist of this art will pay in posting art of questionably offensive nature to the general populace. Criticism in public, non-protected regions is simply unavoidable. Deviantart is only slightly more active than some other places because it is an old site with a lot of active users on it. That's all. I have seen no indication that it's gotten any worse in the last several years.

3) In fact, on that point: No, it really isn't any better or worse now than a decade ago. I don't really draw 'vore art much anymore as some of you know, and a couple people have bemoaned. It isn't in the direction of my most recent artistic ventures. However, I can say something reasonably certain about my experiences as a low to mid-quality vore artist, that if you aren't making waves with the caliber of your art and you aren't making a scene with how you react to hecklers, you probably won't get heckled much. In fact, you likely won't get noticed that much. You simply aren't worth people's time unles you interest them.

Most of these hecklers are trolls, not people who are personally offended by the mere existence of 'vore. Even if they are offended by that, their heckling is more out of trollish behavior than out of their raw offense. The general user who finds your art offensive will post at most 1 comment, and never come back. They'll report an image if they think it breaks a rule, and then that will be the end of the conversation. You will never see them again, because they don't want to know that you exist. They're going to blip over to artist circles they like, who produce work they're comfortable with and they're going to be happy, and you're going to be happy, and neither of you will ever speak again, if you ever spoke in the first place.

Trolls, on the other hand, will react if they find you entertaining to heckle and that usually comes in the form of "Do you react to them." If you're dealing with a troll, just hide their comments, ignore them and block them from commenting. And then? Move on as if they don't exist. Don't engage hecklers, and they normally go away with time, because you are either too boring for their tastes or strong enough not to be impacted, and therefore not worth their time. They thrive off of low-hanging fruit, and if you don't offer it, they won't work for it. There's plenty of things for them to heckle. Most of them don't bother unless they develop a personal vendetta against you. And for those? Block them and move on.

4) The only artists on deviantart likely to get heckled, lots of reports of their art and complications because they draw fetish material are popular, well-received and skilled artists of a caliber that allows them to command commission fees, usually ones who can legitimately command fees in excess of $40 for a color image. These artists draw large crowds of viewers, which means they're more likely to be seen by general users, which means that their fetish material is more likely to be commented on by people who are negatively disposed and who are not simply generic hecklers. This also means that they are infinitely more likely to be reported. If you are not good, you are a LOT less likely to hit anyone's radar on this site.

I know because I'm not good. People have argued this point with me in the past, and I stand by it. I'm not good. My current stuff is passing fair at best, and I do improve with time. I enjoy drawing, but I'm not a "Good Artist." I almost never get heckled. I had art up for years, multiple years that I determined could have been reported because of how Deviantart interpreted its own rules, and it was never once reported to my knowledge or taken down. I only realized, for example, that my "Yuffie" series from ages ago was subject to Deviantart's rules because another major artist who I like to follow posted a nude of Yuffie from post-Cerberus. It was taken down, FAST, and there were a fairly large number of complaints. The rule as interpreted was that if a character's primary depiction was at any time under 18, even if they were depicted as older later in their material, it was not permissible to post them in a variety of situations. I voluntarily removed all of my Yuffie art from the site at that point, which was not a small quantity in those days. It was all Post-Cerberus stuff and I was careful through body proportions, associated fiction and costuming to make it clear the character was post-Cerberus (and therefore 19), but I know for a fact that doesn't fly with their rules (e.g. Korra can't be drawn in sexual situations on that site. Yes, I'm aware she's fully 18 in two of the five seasons, and 21 in two of the five seasons, and only 17 for part of the first season. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how much you make it clear what age she is through drawing her more adult, more robust body style. You draw her in a sexual pose, and it can and WILL be taken down if reported. I have seen it happen a LOT there.). I strictly attempt to follow their rules, because I signed up and agreed to them as an artist, so I've voluntarily avoided posting certain characters in fetish situations since that interpretation was made clear to me.

But the point is: If you don't hit someone's radar, you're not going to get heckled much, and you won't be reported enough to draw attention. I get a heckler once in a blue moon, for all of a single tag. If they feel persistent, I simply block them and I never hear from them again, and this goes back into the period where most of my art was openly fetish material on deviantart. If you aren't someone like, say, http://karosu-maker.deviantart.com (who was one of the artists that got raked over the coals over Yuffie.) with over 10,000 watchers, well over a million page views, who commands heavy prices for their commissions and regularly draws fetish gore material? You're not on people's radar, not unless you're "fun" to heckle.

Sorry, but you're just not important enough or interesting enough for them to bother with. And, if you're following the letter of the rules and the spirit of their interpretation of them, the mod staff doesn't give a fig about you. Post what you want, when you want. They want a smoothly operating ship that they don't have to think about. You don't force them to look at you, the staff will utterly ignore your very existence. Overall, there is simply no reason to consider deviantart anymore "Off Limits" for posting fetish material than any other site. If you're going to post off-Eka's, the risks are going to be the same regardless, and in all likelihood, nobody will care.

I'm sorry, but, why did you decide to write a fucking college essay over this? You basically said "you're not important enough, dumbass", but in a very long and drawn out way.

10 out of fucking 10.

And no, I don't care if I'm "missing the point".

[dollraggirl]

A simple mind, looking for a simple solution to a complex problem.

[jaykayeight]

One additional thought: Even if every single vorarephile would decide to retreat to fetish sites, vore is still a thing. I mean the next boy or girl discovering their fetish would think: "I need to get it out of my system!" posting about vore in one form or another. Its really a continous thing.
Maybe they do feel they are about to break ground with posting their content. It will be always popular forums involved, if we try to ban it or not.

[fixated1]

Deviantart is for Sonic porn and pictures of naked women posing like they're in playboy. It's about ART!

The haters are just a bonus.

[Doku]

-snip-

I'm sorry, but, why did you decide to write a fucking college essay over this? You basically said "you're not important enough, dumbass", but in a very long and drawn out way.

10 out of fucking 10.

And no, I don't care if I'm "missing the point".

The response after yours explains why I wrote a "Fucking college essay."

A simple mind, looking for a simple solution to a complex problem.

Doll pretty much sums up the reason I wrote so much. I will spare the world a second essay. It isn't needed. I don't think you're missing the point, exactly. I think that you're scared and triggered by the fact that trolls exist, and you think we should all be scared and triggered like you, huddling over here in Eka's Portal for fear of the bad men. I don't think you care about the point, or any point but what's in your mind.