Underselling writers

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Underselling writers

Postby PsychicClown » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:54 am

Hey there!
I wanted to discuss my thoughts on writers here. I've recently been putting my writing skills to the benefit of others by writing their fantasies into a story for then to read. I've never done this before so I did a little research of other writers here and general Google searches to get an idea of what my work should be sold at. Most writers tend to charge based on a length and I've seen some charge differently for sfw and nsfw.

For the most part I see the base charge of around $10 or less for 1k in words with more words increasing the price by less than that to about $17/18 for 2k.
Assuming you average about 500 words an HR you are making barley anything($5/he for 1k) for quite a niche fetish that has a couple of writers in comparison to the many other genres that have fled with varying writers.
From my research online most stories of around 4k-6k are valued in the hundreds or thousands for that amount of writing.

What are other people's thoughts on this?
Hope I got my point across!
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby InDepthLook » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:13 am

As an author and an artist here on Eka's, I think it comes down to instant gratification. Like, if you look at a piece of art, you can quickly decipher what it's about and what themes are present, but with a story it takes time to sit down and read through it before you get to the vore stuff. I think both mediums are great! But people want illustrations more than they want stories, and the money follows the demand.

I offer $10 per 1k words as a base rate. It's not a lot of money, but it's what's needed when you're a small artist on a site and want to gain some traction :,)
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby ItsSongxing » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:20 am

Where are you seeing 4k-6k words being valued at multiple hundreds, or even thousands of dollars? Copywriters might make that much, but they're generally working with a company that can afford that kind of expense. Most individuals don't have thousands of dollars of expendable income in general, let alone to spend on fetish writing.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby TheKawaiiCommie » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:20 am

If I were to charge fair industry standards for freelance writers, or try to meet a living wage in the area I live in, I'd shoo away customers since I'd have to charge a rate that'd be astronomical compared to other writers here. Thankfully, it's not my intent to live off commissions, as I suspect is the case with many other writers here. I do commissions as a way to practice writing and generate stories that makes people happy. The money is secondary, I just want enough to support my hobbies. I think someone would have a hard time trying to live off doing writing commissions here. I encourage writers to charge what they think they're worth, but also remember that private commission writing is not the same as writing for corporate blogs etc.. This is a peer to peer transaction, and since most of us are working class, I wouldn't want to place my price range outside what someone in my own economic position could reasonably afford. That'd defeat the purpose of offering to write affordable fiction for people.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby EmilyNidhoggr » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:46 am

Yes, the fact is that paying a writer or artist to realise your personal fantasies is not a dynamic that can exist in a society of equal strangers.

If you're paying someone what their time and dignity is worth, then as you say you're driving upwards into the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a decent length work. If you're paying something closer to what seems to be the market rate, which is shamefully far below what can be made for much less degrading minimum wage work in most relatively stable countries, then either you're exploiting one of the many saps who think this is how they build a name for themselves, or you're both writers/artists who do this sort of thing for each other for fun, and it's not a commission as much as it is a favour. Or you're lucky enough to be close to hand when someone who's practising is fishing for prompts.

Writing and drawing is a time-consuming hobby, not a job, not unless you're working for a multi-million dollar industry that can give you a salary and a pension.
There's an epidemic of people acting like they can just go online and order a standardised commission for pocket change from the local fetish art franchise as though it were a quarter pounder. Sadly, as is the nature of money, their deluded expectation becomes more and more the reality every time someone stoops to humouring them.

[By the way, no disrespect to anyone who does offer commissions, especially if you're just getting started. Ply your craft however you like, just remember you don't owe anyone customer satisfaction, and the fans who matter won't demand it.]
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby TheKawaiiCommie » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:35 am

EmilyNidhoggr wrote:Yes, the fact is that paying a writer or artist to realise your personal fantasies is not a dynamic that can exist in a society of equal strangers.

If you're paying someone what their time and dignity is worth, then as you say you're driving upwards into the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a decent length work. If you're paying something closer to what seems to be the market rate, which is shamefully far below what can be made for much less degrading minimum wage work in most relatively stable countries, then either you're exploiting one of the many saps who think this is how they build a name for themselves, or you're both writers/artists who do this sort of thing for each other for fun, and it's not a commission as much as it is a favour. Or you're lucky enough to be close to hand when someone who's practising is fishing for prompts.

Writing and drawing is a time-consuming hobby, not a job, not unless you're working for a multi-million dollar industry that can give you a salary and a pension.
There's an epidemic of people acting like they can just go online and order a standardised commission for pocket change from the local fetish art franchise as though it were a quarter pounder. Sadly, as is the nature of money, their deluded expectation becomes more and more the reality every time someone stoops to humouring them.

[By the way, no disrespect to anyone who does offer commissions, especially if you're just getting started. Ply your craft however you like, just remember you don't owe anyone customer satisfaction, and the fans who matter won't demand it.]


I appreciate the sentiment, but the fact is that I'm willingly asking for only a small compensation for my time and effort because it's simply another incentive to practice writing. I want to be able to give other working class people what would normally be a luxury good at a rate that's realistic for them, even if I'm being underpaid by corporate standards, which is naturally incomparable. There aren't legions of weirdos who get off on exploiting small-time writers for exposure, as far as I'm aware. It's only degrading if you make it such. This is a hobby and it's wholly voluntary. I don't think it's warranted to insult anyone who wants to hire someone to create art or writing for them. It's peer-to-peer trade. If I held my clients in contempt I simply wouldn't accept their money or try to produce something they'll enjoy. The satisfaction of improving my own writing skill and giving people something nice is my primary reward. A much more cynical outlook defeats the entire purpose of creative work. I also don't understand how you can simultaneously claim that writers on the site are widely exploited, and then decry them for taking peoples' money. That sounds like blaming the group you've just declared the victim, which is typically a poor move. Your bracketed text only confirms that you understand this contradiction, but decided to go with it anyway. Not sure what you're really getting at.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby umakeisee » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:53 am

Part of it is basic supply and demand. There's less of a demand for vore stories and no shortage of people who can pick up writing far faster than art. Not to say good writing is easy, but art is on a whole other level of time and dedication.

Using your own example, 500 words an hour actually sounds kind of low. I wrote three stories, about an hour each with a half hour for revising. Not the best stuff in the world, but I still managed 7076 words in around three hours, making it more like 2300 words per hour. That's closer to $20 an hour for a flat $10 per 1k. Including the hour and a half revising, that's still $15 an hour. That's the low end of what I'd accept for pay at a standard job. With time, those I'll hopefully put out better stories in faster time. Even then, this wouldn't be a viable way to make rent. There's no way I could get commissions to fill 40 hours a week. Vore is a niche fetish and there's not many people wanting to pay for writing. So, we reach the problem. I can easily produce far more fiction than there's demand for, so expecting to make any more than the bare minimum is a pipe dream.

On the other hand, you have art. I have done on and off art practice for the last two years. Even when dedicating dozens of hours to the craft, I'd say I'm still at a middle school level at best. The really great artists probably poured thousands of hours into their art before reaching a level where they could charge any money for it. So, there's going to be far fewer artists charging for art and there's more demand for visual media. So, it makes sense why people will pay hundreds, maybe even thousands, for just a single piece.

So, it's basic economics. No matter how good you are at writing, the barrier for entry is low enough that you'll probably never make a viable living off of it in a niche field. I'd definitely look at it as a secondary income or just making a bit of money off your hobby.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Brazzel » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:03 am

If you've never seen Harlan Ellison's "Pay the Writer", it's three minutes long and you need to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

There are a lot of factors that determine the salary of a writer. When you look at the standard rates of freelance writers and bloggers, it's important to note what they're offering and what kind of experience they have. I know a few technical writers that are able to charge exorbitant fees for their work because it's rare to find someone who offers both technical knowledge in a specialized field and a writing proficiency. Similarly, freelance bloggers can make good money doing projects for companies, because not only do companies have deeper pockets than individuals(something that Songxing and KawaiiCommie pointed out), but also because each blog post goes through layers and layers of revision, with formatting being especially important. A good, one thousand word article is going to take 4-8x the amount of effort that slamming out a thousand words of fiction might (again, milage may vary).

But let's get down to brass tacks: Fetish Writing.

I know three..maybe four writers who make a living writing exclusively vore. And I'm actually surprised by that number. I hear writers complain all the time that artists make far more money, but there are only a handful of artists that make anywhere close to a living wage in the vore space, and most of them branch out and diversify into other fetishes. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of skilled artists taking commissions. It's not to say that there aren't vore artists making hella skrilla on patreon. What I am saying is that it is extremely difficult to promote a hobby to a business and it takes a heck of a lot more than skill. You have to built a clientele. A brand. An image. You have to increase demand because supply is limited. You're one person and you can only do so much in a day and if the demand outstrips the supply, then you have to increase the price, but the process is slow (usually). Like everyone has mentioned, your clientele consists of individuals, so there aren't usually leaps and bounds. You're going to have to deal with people you don't want to deal with. You're gonna get scammed. The further you get, the easier it is to give up, because a normal job pays just as much and offers far more security. Usually.

But some people make it. I did. It annoys me when folks make it out to be some kind of immoral thing to make a living catering to individuals as if every hot dog cart in the city wasn't just one guy catering to individuals; or, on a grander scale, like every retail company ever. It's possible to make a decent wage, but the thing that people always neglect to mention is that you have to be good at what you do. It is a competition.

When I say you have to be good at what you do, I don't just mean the craft itself. Yes, you have to be a good writer. Your grammar should be more than decent (we wish it was perfect but we don't really have editors, so most of us rely on programs). You should have a portfolio of a few dozen stories on Eka's. A nice commission page. But when I say good, I also mean good at the business. Good at drawing clients. Good at MAINTAINING clients through good service, because commissions are a service. They aren't a good. So many people make that mistake. The service is you writing the piece, not the piece itself. You have to be fast.

You are totally correct when you mention that the 'per hour' rate for writers is some horse shit. If you're charging 1 cent a word and you write 1,000 words an hour, you're only making $10. But, like I said, it's a service. It's not just writing for an hour, it's contacting the client and working out the story and making revisions and editing the piece. I've seen people get upset about MY price of 5 cents a word because "You're making $50 an hour?" First of all, even if that was flat out the case, there's a limit to how many words we can write in a day. Most writers burn at around 2,000-4,000 words. Stephen King is prolific and he's said that he averaged 2,000 when he was in his prime. Second of all, like Clown mentioned, that's not a ridiculous price for a freelancer anyway. Third of all, as I mentioned earlier, I think there are lots of sour grapes in the this business. "I can't make it work, so it must be wrong, somehow." It's not. We aren't putting guns to people's heads. We're just setting a price and if people want to pay it, then that's their prerogative.

But to bring it back to the original question: What are my thoughts on writers being undersold in the vore community?

I think...a lot of writers are underselling themselves in the vore community. This isn't a bash. There's no condemnation. I think that it's stupid difficult to maintain motivation to write fiction on a commission basis. The audience can be demanding. There are bad clients. Once you get good enough, you think to yourself, 'isn't there more money writing normal books?' And again, if you're doing it for pocket money, it makes it hard to climb the price ranges. A great artist can build clients fast. A great writer takes time. So there are lots of writers who aren't that good writing for 1 cent a word and if you can't demonstrate that you're better, people will go elsewhere. It's demoralizing. If every writer on the site decided to up their baseline, maybe it would get better. If the entry was 2 cents a word or 3 cents a word, but I acknowledge that that's not realistic. That ain't the business model. And when there are so many avenues for a good writer to take, vore writing is an extremely narrow path.

TL;DR: It's extremely difficult to make it as a freelancer in a fetish space, but a lot of things people attribute to their lack of success boil down to having little experience and better options. Supply and demand is a bitch.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Rumor » Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:44 pm

I did some writing for commission here back in the day, but it's something I let trailing off. Back then I charge about a penny per word, which was cheaper than what I could make on freelancing sites by about a factor of three or more, but I could also write things I enjoyed. (Although writing a story for someone else isn't as fun as writing one for myself.) I still write today, but it's all non-fetish related content as I'm doing one last long-fic as practice before undertaking an actual novel. And... at the rate I work, writing for the prices people are willing to pay isn't worth my time, speaking purely in terms of money. Everyone's writing process is different and some are faster than others.

Yeah, sure, I can bang out a few thousand words in an hour or less. But if I want those words to be up to my standards I ain't gonna just rush hem out to the page and call it a day. I'm gonna take my time, consider what I'm doing, and then revise revise revise. I could probably half-ass 2k words in an hour and make decent money, but it'd be a lot worse than what I can output with time and care. It's the difference between an artist doing a quick and messy sketch versus clean, full colored picture. And once you factor in time spent planning, researching, editing, and communicating, revising based on client wants, and so on, even if I did bang out a 2k story in an hour, I'm still going to have spent more than an hour, a lot more, on the project, easily. And... I'm really willing to doubt people would be willing to pay what I'd need to charge. Especially since modern examples of my style are not, and will never be, present on the site because they're not fetish-content and I want to keep them well, well away from here.

Also, this is not a dig at anyone who might be reading this post, but a lot of fetish writers aren't exactly good either. They're good enough to get the readers going and to fuel their client's imaginations and what's what people pay for, but they're not amazing writers either. A lot of people have the misconception that writing is easier than art and so they'll pick it up and start charging for stories. And, no, it ain't easier. I'm not saying it's harder either, but it's just a different skill with a lot of breadth and depth to cover before one truly knows what they're doing with the craft. But the thing is, unlike art, you cannot just put your piece side-by-side to a piece you know is good and make a quick comparison to see where you're at. Nor can the readers either, it's harder to tell at a glance if writing is bad whereas art it's clear the moment your eyes lay on it. You have to really sit down and slowly dig through a piece to really figure out the strengths and weaknesses of a given piece and most... don't do that. A lot of casual writers will write the piece, run a spelling and grammar check, maybe do a quick once over, and call it day. So, when you're paying only $10 for 1k words, that's about what you can expect a fetish writer to do. And if you're only charging that ballpark, it's probably all you should do unless you're really just in it for the love of the craft and the money is more of a small bonus tip than anything.

You also have the issue writing isn't so easily displayed, which is a bit of a problem for a community like this. Sadly, there's more "value" in throwing $50 at art over writing because that $50 art piece you can use on stuff like roleplaying profiles and good art will attract more players. Sure, you could pay someone to write the profile for you, but those players it's luring in will back off when they realize your writing skills are below the profile's (and if you're good enough to match, why aren't you writing it?) Plus most people aren't going to want to read your 3k word-long profile at initial glance. Hence, writing has "less value" here for what people might commission for. (Not saying that writing is inherently less valuable than art. If I said that and meant it then I'd have to punch myself in the nose.)


Okay, I rambled a bit aimlessly based on the topic and some stuff said in it. So, uhhh, back to OP, if you're looking to write to to practice your skills, make some vore content, make vore content for other people, or other funsies reasons, then totally go for it but don't expect to be making bank on clients, especially when you're new. If you're looking to make actual money though? You're much, much better off pursuing other writing-related options.


If I said anything stupid or upsetting to anyone, my mistake and not intended. Please bop me on the nose if I made such an accident.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby EmilyNidhoggr » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:22 pm

TheKawaiiCommie wrote:
I appreciate the sentiment, but the fact is that I'm willingly asking for only a small compensation for my time and effort because it's simply another incentive to practice writing. I want to be able to give other working class people what would normally be a luxury good at a rate that's realistic for them, even if I'm being underpaid by corporate standards, which is naturally incomparable. There aren't legions of weirdos who get off on exploiting small-time writers for exposure, as far as I'm aware. It's only degrading if you make it such. This is a hobby and it's wholly voluntary. I don't think it's warranted to insult anyone who wants to hire someone to create art or writing for them. It's peer-to-peer trade. If I held my clients in contempt I simply wouldn't accept their money or try to produce something they'll enjoy. The satisfaction of improving my own writing skill and giving people something nice is my primary reward. A much more cynical outlook defeats the entire purpose of creative work. I also don't understand how you can simultaneously claim that writers on the site are widely exploited, and then decry them for taking peoples' money. That sounds like blaming the group you've just declared the victim, which is typically a poor move. Your bracketed text only confirms that you understand this contradiction, but decided to go with it anyway. Not sure what you're really getting at.


My comment last night apparently didn't post, but I can remember the gist.
Basically, who said anything about victims? It's entirely possible and normal to build a consensual, completely voluntary relationship on exploiting someone's weaknesses and generosity without victimising anyone. That doesn't mean it doesn't degrade both parties.

I'm not cynical at all about creative work, but I'm extremely cynical about consuming creative work as a fetish commodity, and I think consuming other people's work should incur a certain level of shame that can only be expunged by making your own. That's why I thing actual peer-to-peer trades- artists swapping requests and even giving each other a small token fee, is lovely and healthy. Because in that instance what's being exchanged is of equivalent value, because it's a labour of love on both sides.

When you swap ten hours of work for half an hour's worth of money, whether because you want practice or "exposure" or whatever, you're being extraordinarily generous, and whoever is benefiting from that work should be humbled by your largesse and go away thinking about how they can pass on their good fortune. Maybe all the commissioners you've worked with have been like that, in which case well done for cultivating that environment. But from what I've seen and heard, the vast majority think of themselves as customers or clients, and expect to being coddled and catered to. Every artist I've known who accepts commissions has talked at some point about wanting to stop drawing/writing because they're sick of dealing with entitled commissioners.

Of course it's a hobby, and voluntary, which is why I personally only grant requests to other artists caught up in the same hobby, or people I've talked to and built rapport with who have an artistic temperament and respect my work, and I never touch money in this space. Of course I don't condemn or look down on how any artist chooses to bestow their time. But I will keep saying in every way possible that artists are everything, commissioners are nothing. Artists give, for many valid reasons, and commissioners only take. It's not a partnership, it's not a two way street. Commissioners deserve nothing, and anything granted to them is a reflection of the artist's mercy and grace. As long as that simple fact doesn't get obscured, I'm cool with whatever.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby gullvy » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:23 am

InDepthLook wrote:As an author and an artist here on Eka's, I think it comes down to instant gratification. Like, if you look at a piece of art, you can quickly decipher what it's about and what themes are present, but with a story it takes time to sit down and read through it before you get to the vore stuff. I think both mediums are great! But people want illustrations more than they want stories, and the money follows the demand.

I offer $10 per 1k words as a base rate. It's not a lot of money, but it's what's needed when you're a small artist on a site and want to gain some traction :,)


I think this is pretty spot on.
But also, there's a difference in skill level required, I think. That's not to say that writers aren't skilled - it's moreso that people are more willing to put up with a less skilled writer, than they are with a less skilled visual artist. And at some level, the reader actually needs to have a decent amount of experience with literature in order to tell good writing from bad. If someone mainly reads fetish stories, their standards in terms of literary quality likely aren't that high.
You need many hundreds or even thousands of hours of practice to become a great writer. But if you have just a little bit of literary sense, then you can cobble something together that people will be decently happy about even if you have far less practice.
However, as a visual artist, you NEED to have trained for probably hundreds of hours before you're good enough that you even like looking at your own work. Most people can't recognise bad anatomy unless it's particularly egregious, but even getting to the point where anatomy is the main problem takes a lot of time for the artist.

Summed up: people's standards are lower for writing than for visual arts, because the difference between crud writing and great writing is more subtle, whereas for visual arts it's a very stark contrast. This means that people are more often willing to just write their own stories because they think it's "good enough", rather than paying an actual trained writer to do so.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby VictorBound » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:30 am

So, a lot of people have covered quite the range of stuff, but there is a few things I think that stand out to me after making art for a while, and then trying to transition to making it into a career-

1- it takes time.
so, honestly, with being a freelance artist of any craft, it takes time to build an audience, and hone your skills to be at the high level of the game. I see so many great artists around me get frustrated because after a year or two of trying, they are not making much. While, Ive seen a fair number of artists, writers and illustrators both, who have gone on to have record breaking kickstarters for projects and make MILLIONS of dollars- but each of those people who I have seen who do it? They kept up with working their craft until they both gained high levels of skill, combined with a large enough audience to support said skill.

2- diversify - Many people try to only do one thing, but, sometimes a market may be limited for one type of work, or you could do well with another type of art as well- be willing to experiment, and create a couple of different internet personas who each offer a different type of content to different audiences. I have my own more "safe for general audience's" persona that I take to conventions, and have profiles for online, where I sell a lot of more general fanart and some sexy, but not TOOOO sexy works, with no fringe fetish content. I appeal to broad audiences there. But, then I have my fetish persona, which I post stuff, and am starting to do commissions and patreon for under a DIFFERENT name online. So, now I have a few different "brands" of myself that can each sell different versions of products... but at the end of the day, they can both use and benefit from continuing to enhance my drawing skills.

3- writing, and freelance verses having a publisher- so, its possible to make it as a professional author. a lot of people do. but, at the end of the day, the size and scope of the audience you distribute too, affects the pool of customers you can sell to. This is why most professional authors will sell work through a publisher. Publishers are large companies that can handle the mass marketing, and ADVERTISING, and make book deals with stores etc, and actively get the products out to sell. You can make it as a freelance author too, but, you need to build a large following on your own to do so. And, this can take a lot of effort and time on your part. With fetish works, it can be tricky because there are less publishing houses that are reliable for that kind of thing, writing vore means you kind of have to go solo and use the internet.

4- be honest with yourself about your skill level, and always keep improving -
One issue I do see with some artists, is that sometimes they think they are worth more or are at a higher skill level then they are. Im sure you have seen artists around who, they try, but they are still making things that look like a bad MS paint drawing done with a stuttering computer mouse, verses a trained digital artist who has beautiful linework and crisp clean illustrations. And you have probably read some beautifully crafted stories on here, that were almost full fantasy novels that drew you in so much you forgot you were reading smut, verses, coming across some other "writing" works that were like 10 bad sentences with no punctuation, bad grammar, and clearly no effort to make the "story" readable.
Your skill level will affect what people will be willing to pay.
As long as you as an artist try to improve a little each time you make a new piece, and you keep growing, ANYONE can master any art form. It does take work. Your time and effort, even if you are a beginner and making not so great art is still valuable. In the early days of creating however, its only valuable to you. But, once you grow, then it will become valuable to others.
You have to be able to take some criticism, and honestly evaluate your own works, but also NOT beat yourself up too bad so you can keep going.
Each time you make art, weather it is writing, or drawing- take a look at it and ask 2 questions- what is good about it? and what could I do better?
make an effort to experiment with new processes, find an area you struggle with, and see if you can fix it over time. recognize how to improve yourself and give yourself the time and grace to do so. THIS is how artists make it.
After a few years of diligent practice and improving, your audiences will grow. dont stay stagnant or unwilling to grow. dont think too highly of yourself, or too low either. just be honest about where in the journey you are at.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Doku » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:53 am

Current Industry Standards:
https://www.the-efa.org/rates/?fbclid=I ... Uymj84uwF0

Writing rates are at the bottom. The current trend of market rates for Professional Freelance Writers is somewhere around 9-10 cents per word for ghost-writing or non-ghost writing of fiction in work for hire situations. This payscale generally assumes that the freelancer is writing their work for someone who seeks to receive profit from that work, as I understand it (So, for example, ghost writing portions of a work of fiction for publication). Fan-fiction writing that is not intended to result in further profit tends to be work-for-hire and pays less than this value, but not necessarily significantly less. Industry standards when I wrote freelance were ... 5 cents a word, though this is close to a decade ago at this point and significantly out of date. Inflation has struck the market and freelancers have been pushing for better pay and treatment. In RPGs, Paizo entertainment was one of the best paying, at around 7 cents a word, and I believe that they still are one of the highest paying of their freelancers. Most would offer 6 cents in those days, which was about 10 years ago, and that price tag has gone up significantly due to inflation.

Ultimately, you're looking at a market where a traditional professional should easily expect 10 cents a word for fictional writing, marking somewhere around $100-150 for a 1,000-1,500 word fictionette and several hundred dollars for anything in the Short Story or Novelette category. This is, however, full on professionals, and this payscale assumes that the work is intended to be used "for profit" by the recipient or, at the very least, that they now have rights to the fiction for purposes of re-publication and utilization. If the writer retains the right as writer to decide if the publication should be reproduced for additional profit, then that value will drop by 1/2 at least. This is for actual professionals. Amateurs (unless they build up followings for their work sufficiently to merit being treated as professionals or semi-professionals by their followings can generally command industry standard prices without difficulty. Put another way? There is a reason that established Vore Artists with large bodies of work on this website now command higher prices than they did years ago. Not only has their skill improved, but they now have a following of sufficient size to acknowledge that their work is at a professional level in commission markets, and thus can decline lower price tags if they wish, which is their right and privilege as artists).

So, generally? An Amateur writer building a following expecting 3 cents a word ($30-45 for a 1-1.5k vignette for example) is entirely believable, and well within expectations, and within 1-2 years of consistent writing for commission should hopefully build a fanbase sufficient to command 5-6 cents ($50-75 for the same size work) on a regular basis. That's the expectation.

The reality: Market Pressure when it comes to producing fictional work is cut-throat. While in theory a writer is due the fair wage for the time that they will put into the average fiction (And let's politely remember that the minimum wage probably should be around $15/hour in the US if we're looking at costs of living), and thus should be able to command industry standards once they achieve a following that acknowledges their worth as a professional writer, the reality is that there are many who will always say "Well, I could just write it myself, so why should I pay so much?" There is also a difficulty in building a fan-base as a fiction writer within fetish communities that is slightly higher than for visual media (though this is by no means impossible). The writer would need to branch out beyond singular websites in order to cultivate the following necessary, and if they are primarily a fetish writer this comes with a certain amount of risk of backlash for content when outside of those communities. Ultimately, it is difficult if not impossible to clearly state what a writer WILL command, though it is easy to state what they SHOULD be able to command in terms of rates.

Personal Take: Reach a level of skill and put out tester fiction to determine if people would be willing to pay for your work. If your caliber is sufficient to command rates, don't enter the industry until you are certain you can command 3 cents a word, and stick to your guns on this one. Do not undervalue your work. begin at this base level and promote your work in multiple venues that you feel comfortable and safe doing it. Build a fanbase of sufficient size, and then with warning start moving your prices to industry expectations. You would not be the first, and this is where a lot of current visual media artists operate, at a level that the market will fairly bear for their work. Given that their prices remain consistent over the course of not simply months but years and there are waiting lists in many cases, this is feasible, but comes with time and effort and a bit of luck.

===========================

RE: "Well, I could just write it myself." I will politely state, yes. You could. I used to say that about artists once, long ago. It's why my first, terrible drawing of Hip-Hugger getting eaten by a Nepenthes Pitcher Plant exists, which I choose to leave up to this day because it was my first vore art, and in fact my first artistic expression since I was in single digits. I got tired of begging artist who, frankly, didn't have the time to do freebies and still eat better than cup ramen, and I knuckled down and bought some colored pencils. Years later, my wrists demanded I switch to digital work, but the upshot is. Yeah. You want the content that badly? You can do it yourself. But that will cost you resources for art supplies. It will take you time to learn the trade enough to make the fiction or visual media to a level you find personally satisfying. It will require dedication to continue doing it until you reach that point. And, it may require just a smidge of that old thing we call Talent (which I am lacking in when it comes to visual media. I'm stubborn and I learn, but my talents are in fiction writing. That's why I got paid at times for one, but not the other.). So, if you truly believe you can do it yourself? Then go do it. Study, learn, and embrace the passion you have for creating the content you want. But, hey, if you don't have the time or inclination? Heh, well, that's why you pay people to do it for you, isn't it? And they put that time, talent and resources down in your stead, so guess what? They get paid what the market will bear, which is to say, what you will pay for their work.

And between you, me and the fencepost? Yeah, I got costed out of paying for commissions a long time ago. Guy's gotta eat, and they're expensive, but I don't begrudge the artists the pricetag they get. It's what the market will bear, and most of my favorite artists in this field have been doing this for 10+ years. They've earned the paychecks they get.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Chameleonette » Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:30 pm

Honestly, part of the reason I have never offered writing commissions is because I'm not really sure how to go about pricing it. There is definitely demand. Over the years, I have been asked at least a couple dozen times if had writing commissions open and users here showing general interest. In fetish communities, though it will never have equal demand and supply of art, there is definitely a fair amount of people who are happy to sit down and read their fantasies. It's not instant gratification, but often times the payoff for a decent or well-written story can be immensely satisfying. It's one of the reasons roleplay is very popular in fetish circles, as well.

Do I think that writers here undersell themselves? Absolutely, in a lot of cases. Writing is already a difficult craft, and adding on that you're trying to tailor it to the specifics of a commissioner makes it that much harder. But considering I have never been able to determine pricing for my own work, I know that it's very difficult to figure out what's fair, what people will pay, and how to determine demand---which is increasingly difficult due to how varied vore content is and how specific people's fantasies can be. And as others have said, it also depends on their level of skill in writing, as well.

There's a lot of factors, but writing commissions are especially difficult to approach (in my experience) from the writer's side of things. I had an easier time with working out art commissions.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Ohgra » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:55 pm

supporting yourself with fetish writing is an almost impossible dream, i'm happy with the amount of demand i get when i open my 3 cents a word comms but man it would be absolutely sick af to match my day job with porn income.
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Re: Underselling writerr

Postby skorm » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:51 am

There extremely undersold, some of us couldn’t formulate a story to save our own lives and that’s the truth . All of you have my respect whether you’ve made it big or not or whether we can all agree on what’s hot or not , there are times I think your all to kind with how much you ask and I bet you a lot of you are very humble . Some times I think it’s like imposter syndrome . That said the highest I’ve paid for a commission was 25 dollars 1k a word I justified it because what I like is so niche do I think there a amazing writer outside this ? Probably not. But that said niches are niches and this one kinda fell into my hands strangely. 20 dollars I think is a good rate for 1k words , I also don’t think the writer should feel rushed and always try to make that clear to them.
Good smut will last you longer then porn any day , was it the perfect commission no , but I do think we have to respect each-others level of comfort this is a tough industry and the reality is times are tough to . Don’t sell yourselves short negation is pivotal , and adjusting price can be tiresome . Some of the most humblest writers I’ve met on this site won’t even take money I love to give feed back where I can or how I can I consider myself more of a feed-backer . I just hope you realize that we your audience are genuinely rooting for you we don’t want to see you fail or feel undersold
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Winny » Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:15 pm

It's not just writers, but most content creators undersell themselves. And it's not just fetish work either, the rates for SFW stuff is even LOWER in a lot of places then fetish work.

As someone with imposter syndrome, increasing rates is really stressful. Deep down I know I'm worth more then what I charged for commissions but another part of me keeps thinking I'm in the wrong.

It's hard to stay positive sometimes about this stuff, but baby steps. If we want to lift up our writers and artists then we can only do so as a community. <3
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Kanosint » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:58 pm

While I have paid rates of up to 30 dollars per 1000 words, as someone who enjoys stories of 10k+ words, it's often tough to truly justify that, no matter how good the writer and no matter how niche my kinks.

On the other hand, I have also discovered those who far undersell, and then I just tip a decent amount. You know who you are XD

A proper rate that is - for me - sustainable, where I can commish every 2-3 months, would be between 15 and 20 dollars per 1000 words depending on experience and additional offers (for instance, bulk writers who can get into a story and write big stories as easily as small stories can and sometimes do offer discounts for bigger stories; or when the subject appeals or the commissioner is a member of the writer's Patreon those are similarly good ways of offering discounts to further encourage certain behaviours from your customers)

Just my 2 cents (per word), my pwn writing is aimed at publication so it's very different monetization.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby PsychicClown » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:31 pm

Hey, thank you all for your insights and opinions on this! It gave me a new perspective, with things being affordable for most people interested in having their ideas become a story for them. I enjoy writing and having others give me their ideas can be inspiring for what to write and use in other work I've written.
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Re: Underselling writers

Postby Thesckass20 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:01 pm

As a writer with a fair amount of experience through the years… I can tell you that Pricing your work at first it's tricky if you're still a beginner. Back when I began working on writing commissions I usually negotiated a fair price with my commissioner and x amount of pages. Once we agreed they paid half of the price and then I would get to work, usually would show them progress on the commission via notes or messaging apps and then bam, shown them a half of the work so they gave me the remaining half. Then I would give them the full work and that's it.

However, I have began checking on my rates and eventually figured out my rates with this calculator, type any amount you want and then the number of words you'll usually write in a book. https://essayscam.org/word-price-calculator/

The more experience you get through the years and the better you get at your craft the more money you'll be able to ask for your work if you're good enough and have a good reputation in the writing community. Being a writer compared to a drawing artist is pretty much having A LOT of people offering their writing services, so you really gotta be good and have a good rep if you wanna increase your chances of being chosen among the sea of writers.

Watch other artists, take cues and hints, ask for feedback and never be afraid to receive a critique, just don't expect to make a living with writing. Writing at most is a side gig that will get you extra money for art or any other stuff you wanna buy (unless you get hired by a big fish) And whenever you start offering comissions… ensure that you have made a sizable amount of stories and you got a good audience, sharing your work is key!

I do see that many artists tend to undersell themselves due to the wide offer of writers alongside the unpopularity of writing in general, writing isn't easy but it can be pretty rewarding
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