Posted by Mourtzouphlos 1 year ago Report

I seem to recall you saying in a comment somewhere that you didn't think the idea of a prehistoric Eanli story would work very well. Shows what you know, eh?
My first thought is that I would have enjoyed this more if I remembered what other works you were referencing. It's been a long time since I've read a lot of your other works, and while I was reading this I kept on vaguely recognizing some things but not remembering exactly and not wanting to try and trawl through all of your other stories trying to find a background detail (although I did catch that it's from just after Hunting Paradise talking about the origins of the caste system ... right?).
The Biyan-Tinah seemed to me like a massive waste of potential, like taking a core good idea and wrapping it in so much separate and unrelated bad idea that it delegitimizes it. So he wanted them to band together and form a complex civilization that can engage in collective self-defence. That's good! But then it gets wrapped in an oppressive cult that makes everyone hate it and now everyone is convinced that freedom is only possible in a small tribal lifestyle. That's bad! This is something I've always wondered about: the predators worked together here (it literally says at the end that Lau did what he did, but good). Kiyi figured out how to work together here. Why does no prey figure out that genuine cooperation of those who won't eat you against those who will would be helpful? It looks like they're exposed to the idea here of a diet-based alliance against a status quo that's unfavorable to you, but then even though it's successful, they don't adopt it for their own use. Is there an in-story, or is it just 'if they did, it'd be a different world?'
Also, apparently they have a form of writing? I thought this seemed like well before that developed, or is it an import from a more advanced civilization elsewhere kind of deal?
Lastly, this really solidified a trend I've noticed in your stories, which is that as time passes, the predators seem worse and worse. Here, hunting doesn't really reflect negatively on them at all. It's a harsh, cruel practice in a harsh, cruel world, and they literally have no choice if they don't want to immediately die. They wouldn't even be able to conceive how it would be possible to actually create a functional society without it. In the 1800s analogue, it's distasteful, but understandable. Society could try and minimize prey deaths much more than they already have - but they haven't. It's much less effort to just put the burden on the prey. That's still evil - but it's a systemic, societal evil. An individual pred can't exactly do much to change it on their own, so there's still some sympathy. Then we get to the cyberpunk era, where every predator could survive indefinitely without eating a single prey if they personally chose to. Just go eat those replicant things and call it a day. There's literally nothing stopping them from doing that. They just don't want to. As time goes on - as being moral becomes easier - there's increasingly few good reasons and increasingly thinner excuses to cover up the fact that their moral logic is 'I want to do this, and if you suffer in the process, I don't care because you are lesser and your deepest desires pale in importance to my whims.'

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 1 year ago Report

This story could be read as a prequel to Hunting Paradise, and there's many bonus details that emerge if they're read in proximity to one another. I opted not to specify that in the story description because I hoped either work stand on their own merits.

AVAST, COMMENT READERS! THERE BE SPOILERS AHEAD!
I wish we had click-to-reveal markup on this site.
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BT's movement was never about safety or protection. BT himself was an individual that needed to be the least concerned about predators. Their prior system of organization was obviously better at protecting vulnerable members of the group from predation; for example, Kiyi's name stems from "good watcher." No, BT was obsessed with his conceptualization of immortality.

Anyway, the world is a complicated place. Alliances can be contextually specific, and ordering groups together usually results in some unexpected outcomes much later.

Anyway, Ku-rahrah knew what writing was because he was a bird. He can't read any of the preserved writings that exist, but there are specific groups and individuals that have kept the practice alive for an incredibly long time.

A related Eanlian joke:
How would one talk to a dinosaur?
A: Politely.

Lastly, this really solidified a trend I've noticed in your stories, which is that as time passes, the predators seem worse and worse.
Untrue! They smell much better now.

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Posted by Mourtzouphlos 1 year ago Report

Preserved writings? An incredibly long time? Are you implying that there was some sort of precursor civilization, because given that writing originated in order to keep large scale, long term accounts, I don't see the society depicted developing it on their own, or lasting as is while in contact with a society that did for a significant amount of time.
Phrasing it like that, I suddenly realize that it's very similar to the cult from Anonymouse Sources: it's ultimately exploitative, and the benefits are just side effects that they push hard to cover up the reality, but the thing is, those benefits are real. The cult there managed to make their own little hidden society with no predation, and then successfully escaped when they were caught. BT had a plan to cripple the local predator population, who reacted as if it were a serious threat (I disagree about the previous system being 'obviously better' at protection from predators; it may be hard for settled groups to conquer nomads, but the other way round is practically unheard of. Specialization and safety in numbers should win out in the end). Couldn't they band together in a genuine alliance of mutual support? Especially here, where the predators don't have a government to rule over them, it seems like it would be a good idea. But it never seems to happen, and I'd like to know why.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 1 year ago Report

Civilization comes and goes. If it isn't tenable over time, or if internal components are unstable, then it eventually flies apart. Occasionally, depending upon the size and influence of those cultures, small remnants are left behind.

A related Eanlian joke:
How would one write to a dinosaur?
A: In a large typeface.
(It's... funnier in the original language.)

Anyway, you're asking why groups of prey don't band together to protect themselves from predators. Simply put, they do, all the time. In fact, some of their evolved behaviors are all about that. Yet, oh, the predators... they evolve, too. If there's a valley of pigs, eventually it starts to smell, and the wolves arrive. A flight of pigeons that resided on an island without predators eventually evolved into the dodo.

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Posted by Mourtzouphlos 1 year ago Report

I suppose that's fair. I just haven't really seen any examples of it in your stories other than the two cults (and the group from Education of Oseri Rivers, but the same dynamics apply to the situation there). Is it something that the predators did their best to stamp out once they got control? Because I could see that happening.


Now ... CIVILIZATION CAN GO!!!!???? That's ... unprecedented. Completely. There aren't any known examples of cultures regressing from settled to hunter-gatherer and forgetting everything that came before. After the Bronze Age Collapse, the Greeks still remembered the Myceneans, albeit filtered through mythology. After the fall of the Roman Empire, we barely lost anything major other than those that required long distance trade networks and empire scale resources to pull off, and people were still aware of them. And apart from all of that, we had the many actual, physical remains from the period. And you're telling me that Eanli civilization somehow managed to crash hard enough to lose practically everything? Screw predators eating people, THAT'S the major difference. How did that happen?! HOW?! HOW I SAY?!

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 1 year ago Report

I just haven't really seen any examples of it in your stories other than the two cults(...)
Also, it was a major concept explored in Hunting Paradise, the very first story in the setting. Riot goes on a bit about the problems with prey seclusion, from her understanding, but also what happens when there's a young generation unprepared for predators when they inevitably appear.

How did that happen?! HOW?! HOW I SAY?!
Same reason that there's so many abandoned ruins all over Earth: people didn't find them suitable anymore. There's lot of reasons why; depletion/over-use of local resources, development of irreconcilable social conflicts, major shifts in climate, and natural disasters are just a few. Additionally, mobile societies are not inherently less advanced than sessile ones.

Also, in the case of Eanli, there can be some nasty weather, much nastier than anything we've ever seen. Kiyi had folk knowledge of mega-monsoons and a landscape-sweeping super-wildfire.

Anyway, they didn't lose anything: I'm telling you that--ugh, look, have another joke:
Why did the dinosaurs write so much?
A: So they wouldn't forget.

Okay, that joke only makes sense in Lagous, but I'll explain it. You see,

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Posted by Mourtzouphlos 1 year ago Report

...Okay, so I haven't actually read either of your two novels all the way through BUT! That's just because when I read your shorter works I couldn't stop thinking about anything else for weeks so I was afraid of what would happen to me if I read all of that. Please take that as a compliment. Please.

And on Earth, civilizations have ended, but what they haven't done is just up and vanish: they're conquered, split apart into successors, or just move someplace else, but there has always been a continuous chain of civilization to continue on after they're gone. Rome might have fallen, but Roman civilization didn't, it just became non-Roman - they had different cultures, but they still wrote Latin and built with arches. Widespread technologies become widespread because they're useful, and it's precisely because of that that people don't want to get rid of them, and it's a lot easier to keep something going than it is to come up with it in the first place - and that desire in itself can help spur further cooperation. But I get the feeling that you actually are planning on writing something covering this so you're not going to answer my questions here and spoil it, right?

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Posted by fire238 1 year ago Report

I'm sorry for replying to a post that wasn't meant for me and replying so lately, but you're saying a lot of things that I couldn't vocalize about these stories that stuck my metaphorical crop.

And what keeps bugging me is how the predators keep winning. Despite every factor that should work against them - being outnumbered chief among them - the predators keep managing to come out on top. Former stories have painted them as nearly indestructible monsters, but how can they have no weaknesses? No poisons or venoms that work? No diseases? Has no one tried to just run them over or set them on fire?

And humanity getting conquered? Sure, it's happened in other stories. But THESE stories make it look like we got steamrolled and then just gave up forever. We never revolted? Never tried to fight back after losing Earth? This goes for other species, of course, but I can't see humanity - THE SPECIES I AM A MEMBER OF - just rolling over and consigning itself to the menu.

And back to the predators, you said it yourself - as time goes on, they and their actions become less and less defensible. To me, at least, they come off as nothing more than appetites on legs - all their intellectualism and moral grandstanding existing as just a veil to hide their need to conquer and consume.

I think that's what gets me - the dishonesty. In other vore stories, the predators are, at least, usually honest about their predation. Here, the predators lie all the time, like back in that one story where they messed with the hunting hours so they'd start early.

I hate the toxic power dynamic, too. Prey are victims of the abuse of predators, and the predators never face any comeuppance for it. It sets me off in the worst way.

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Posted by foxyoreos 1 year ago Report

I'm really hesitating to reply to this because I don't think it's good for me to come onto another artist's work and steer comments in this direction. I don't think it's fair to ObsidianSnake. It's also kind of not great for me to jump into another conversation. Anyway, apologies to you and to ObsidianSnake in advance <3

❤❤❤

But I've seen you comment in this direction a couple of times, and I think you're partially right but not totally right. There's not one underlying idea that makes these kinds of stories hard to read, there's multiple elements that work in tandem. ObsidianSnake is very talented at building systems of oppression that feel realistic, not unrealistic. They capture the infuriating nuances of how abusive and toxic power dynamics work in the real world.

I don't mean that as an insult, ObsidianSnake is a very talented writer and I have nothing against them.

But it's not that these systems are unrealistic that makes them frustrating or hard to deal with, it's that they poke a little too close to home imitating how obviously unjust systems work in the real world.

What you point out about dishonesty is one element. In the real world we don't build unjust systems and then say, "they're unjust, what are you going to do about it." We say, "this is just how the world works, it's natural, this is just a natural consequence of society, the systems couldn't work any other way, we're not the ones who built them, etc" And we go a step further and we demand that our "prey" sympathize with us. It's not enough to have power, we demand that the groups we oppress make us feel better about oppressing them.

We become the victims because our victims are making us feel guilty about hurting them. It's insanely dishonest, we build complicated webs of moral frameworks to abstract away from that oppression and to allow ourselves to pretend that they're not just openly abusive systems, and to allow us to make those systems casual.

But that's only one element. There's also an element ObsidianSnake is really good at capturing where predators get to decide what the debate looks like and what counts as "valid" opposition to that system. "Tears in Daylight" is a great example of that dynamic. Knights call poisoning dishonorable and combat honorable, which is interesting considering that knights are all trained in combat and wear armor, and peasants don't. It's hard to talk about systems being fair or unfair when one side gets to choose what the definition of fair is.

You could go on and on, but the point is I don't think it's a single element. I also don't think it's a thing where the predators losing or getting their comeuppance would make the stories feel better. This stuff is brutal because it hits close to home. It's easy to hate the predators in these stories because we recognize them and we recognize their arguments, and we recognize that those arguments are ultimately kind of bullshit, and because they are recognizable outside of fiction it's harder to suspend disbelief and just jump in and turn off the part of our brains that feels infuriated at hearing these arguments get made.

It might feel temporarily cathartic to see predators lose, but the frustration comes from the fact that we know that these arguments don't lose in the real world, and we are desperate for them to lose even just once or twice in the real world.

Again, that doesn't mean ObsidianSnake's writing is bad or that ObsidianSnake is the one making those arguments, or that it's bad to write characters that make those arguments.

❤❤❤

I have ObsidianSnake's work blocked on Aryion. For the most part I stopped reading it a while ago. I can not stress enough that this is not because I don't like ObsidianSnake, it's not because I think their writing is bad, it's not because I think their writing is immoral, and it's not because I think that other fluffers shouldn't enjoy it or are bad for enjoying it. I have their work blocked because I am autistic and I relate to fiction in a very extreme way that makes it more difficult for me in some situations to suspend disbelief or turn off certain emotional reactions.

I don't think that's exclusively an autistic thing, I have no idea whether or not you're neurotypical. For me it's an autistic thing, for other fluffers it might come from someplace totally different.

So it's not my place to say, I know I'm out of line suggesting it, and I really, really apologize up front for stepping out of line. I really, really hope this doesn't come across as offensive. But for whatever it's worth I 100% recognize the emotions that show up in many of the comments I've read from you on ObsidianSnake's work, and for again whatever it is worth (and I know I'm out of line for suggesting it) but I don't think those feelings ever get resolved by reading more of the works. I've been in that position too, where I have something that is difficult for me to vocalize that is really bothering me, and I keep getting sucked into the stuff that is triggering that problem because sometimes scratching at a wound feels better than leaving it alone.

But it doesn't help, because what you really want is for other fluffers to understand what you're saying. And so scratching the wound just becomes a bigger reminder that fluffers don't understand. Often from not fault of their own! Sometimes it because the way they relate to fiction or just because of different emotional tolerances they have, they can't understand what those emotions are feeling like. But that constant reminder and that constant scratching just tears the wound further and makes it deeper and makes it get more infected and itchy.

That's not ObsidianSnake's fault, it's just... a thing. The only thing that actually helps prevent that recursive process is disengaging with it and then finding communities that actually understand what you're trying to say.

❤❤❤

Again, apologies both to you and ObsidianSnake for cluttering up the comments with this, I know I'm kind of out of line here. Sorry.

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Posted by FirstOf71st 1 year ago Report

You know, I also caught myself trying to sympathize with the Biyan-Tinah a few times, but come on -- they're obviously a manipulative cult. It's primitive lemur fascism! And the predators (and many prey, I suppose) _do_ seem to be intuitively aware of natural ecosystem balance and how it ought to be maintained.

I also caught the continuity nods, not that I feel the need to trawl back through "Hunting Paradise" and the rest. Knowing it's all connected is fine enough, and this was a great read on its own.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 1 year ago Report

Somebody rapidly reading through the Eanlian stories will have quite a different experience than those that have been reading them over time.

I consider that when I'm writing them. I try to make sure the connections are factually consistent, at least. But, I don't never want to sacrifice any one story's ability to be read on their own.

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Posted by Mourtzouphlos 1 year ago Report

Totalitarianism and authoritarianism work best when there's genuine reasons to be upset that the status quo isn't addressing: Germany in the thirties was in an economic freefall that the Weimar Republic couldn't fix, Russians in 1917 were being fed into a meat grinders by incompetents for no good reason. Like I said up above, there's very few people who are attempting to try and keep the predators from eating people. It's not unreasonable to look at them and go, "yeah, they're pretty sketchy, but if I don't want to get eaten, there's literally no other option."

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Posted by Furryvoreonly 10 months ago Report

Hi, I really like this story, and I want to ask some questions as well as comment on some things that happened in the story. These different questions and comments should all be separated from each other and in order of where they appear in the story so they can be easier for you to respond to if you want. A lot of them will also include quotes from your story of what I am talking about. So here we go! Sorry in advance for the long comment.

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

I'm a little confused about Lau’s reasons behind wanting Kiyi to not see her, so I would like you to try and clarify them a little for me. I think that it is a combination of Lau being self conscious about being albino and her not wanting to scare Kiyi and ruin their friendship. What I am confused about is why she wasn't willing to let Kiyi see her after Ku-rahrah explained what albinism is and how she isn't cursed or some sort of freak. After finding out that there are others like her out there of a multitude of spices, why did she still decide that she would rather Kiyi not see her?

Also, right after that conversation about albinism, there is a break in the text and then Lau is referred to by her name for the first time with no mention of how Kiyi learned it. I thought it would have made sense for her to tell Kiyi it at some point in the story as the two start to grow closer to each other.
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I like how Kiyi and Lau started leaving gifts and making things for each other. It was really sweet and heartwarming to see the two getting along like that despite their places on the food chain.
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(Kiyi touched her neck, feeling how exact the fit was. Kiyi imagined a gigantic white fossa reaching into her shelter to delicately measure her sleeping body with those giant paws - it was a morbidly adorable thought. Kiyi couldn't help but laugh.)

Morbidly adorable is the perfect way to describe that. I hope somebody decides to draw this scene in the future. It's just too cute not to have art of it!
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(The pelican made a click of amusement. "I meant this nest she's built. It's very stable and thorough. A very clever mammal you have tamed here, Pale One.")

I find the casual disregard / misattribution of Kiyi’s achievements here by other predators to be pretty telling of what they think of her. I don't really blame Lau that much for not correcting them though; It would have been pretty embarrassing for her to defend a prey animal like that in front of all those other carnivores. It might even have impacted their opinion of her and therefore her ability to effectively lead / organize their efforts in combating the Biyan-Tanah.
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(The thought reminded her - the Biyan-Tanah were so stupid! Teaming up with friends of other species was so easy. She could not fathom why they chased them away, treated them as foes, and squabbled over space and resources, when it was so much easier to share and share alike.)

That's the main thing that the Biyan-Tanah were doing wrong in terms of strategy. If a group like them were to form a wide coalition of prey species for the goal of mutual defense and combating the predators, Dasaci could have very well ended up like Veria or maybe even better when it comes to the treatment of prey animals.

That brings me to another question. Have there ever been any widespread prey rebellions before in Eanli’s many predator run nations / continents? You'd think that with this much operation, servitude, and class divide, you would at least see some revolts break out. If so, have any of them ever succeeded, even on a local level. Basically, I'm asking if a rebelion akin in scale to the Haitian Revolution has occurred on Eanli? If something like that were to happen, my moneys on it happening in Aulendia? If you were to make a spectrum of “How fun is it to live as prey” for the different societies on Eanli, Aulendia is probably at the bottom of that list with the arctic being at the very top of the list.

Tell me if I'm wrong here because I might be. Judging by the species present, their societal structure, and the general vibe they give off, I think that Aulendia is basically europe if the french revolution never happened and the aristocracy were big scary predators. I know we haven't really had any stories there yet, but it seems that the continent is similar to the world “Randomness” created. Both of them seem to have the prey get sent down the gradual path through history from going from peasants, to serfs, to finally slaves. That is speculation on my part when it comes to Aulendia though, so please let me know if I'm wrong here.
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I really liked the scene where Lau and Kiyi cuddled together. That's my absolute favorite type of stuff right there! Cuddles are so underrated and underrepresented in stories like these! I also found it pretty funny how Ku-rahrah got jealous about it saying, "No! Pale One, stop that! Only I can cuddle Kiyi!".
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(Kiyi said, "We know that the Biyan-Tanah are collecting in their big camps along here, the ridge of Yyudo.”
Lau emitted a hmm? "Yyudo?"
Ku-rahrah groomed the inside of his wing. "Broken flats that descend to the sea."
Kiyi shrugged. "I'm tired of saying the whole thing. So, the first part of each word, kind of. Yyudo.)

I like the tie in here connecting this ancient Dasaci to Its modern counterpart where Yyudo would later become its largest city and capitol. Details like this help make the world feel more lived in :)
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I like the scene where Kiyi rescued that rail bird that was a jerk to her earlier in the story. It does a good job at showing us her kind nature.
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I like that Lau learned all those weaving techniques by watching Kiyi and eventually with her help made herself her own set of armor so that both her and Kiyi would be armored in fights.

I do have a question though, how much taller would you say Lau is than Kiyi? My guess would be somewhere in the 2-3 times taller range, but I don't know for sure.
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(Her feet sank into the wet soil of the clearing with every step. She sat down beside the entwined pair of pachylemurs, legs spread wide. Lau reached around her belly to take up both together. In the moment, Kiyi thought that Lau was going to eat both of them together. Strange, then, that she didn't resist, just stared with wide eyes.)

Interesting! Maybe Kiyi’s friendship with Lau has sorta warmed her up to the idea of being eaten by her. She already knows that Lau will eat her when she grows old and life becomes painful, so she might have internalised getting eaten by her as the way she would go. This might also have to do with some of her submissive tendencies that get shown a little later in the story.

I also liked how Lau spared that younger female lemur during the fight and took her mother up on her offer. That little bit of mercy there helps the reader see that predators aren't just big scary carnivores; they are also people too.
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(She said, "Your kind is meant to feed from the trees and plants, tend to them, to play, grow, mate, tend to your families and friends, and be consumed by us, by me, when the time is right.")

This quote does a great job at showing us some of Lau’s predatory perspective and worldview when it comes to prey. I like that you included it to help give the reader some insight into her thoughts.
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(Kiyi scampered away at the power behind the word. Strangely, she felt a tingle go up her spine, a thrill, as she obeyed.)

It seems that some prey may become submissive in some way after prolonged exposure to predators such as Lau. I wonder if Eanli’s predatory societies later began to selectively breed the prey species under their control to increase their dosility and hopefully spread these submissive tendencies to the rest of their population. Something like that seems like something a power hungry and predatory elite might try to do in order to try and stop uprisings before they even happen.
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I love the way you described how Lau ate the pachylemur that she captured after realising the futility of trying to pry him for information. I could really tell how satisfying that meal was for her, and I enjoyed seeing her happy like that. When predatory joy is described that well in stories like this, I can almost feel some vicarius koy in return from seeing a predator being so satisfied and full.
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(There wasn't anyone around. It was just them.
Kiyi shifted position and looked at her lifelong companion down the length of her body. He turned his head to see the dark flesh through the gaps in the fur there.
"Hey. Ku-rahrah, do you think we have some time for...?"
He gave her an avian smile and put a wing over her thigh. "Always.")

As someone who is asexual, I really appreciate that you left their “alone time” implied instead of writing some sort of lemur parrot sex scene. I know that some people might like something like that, but others like me would have to skip that part of the story.
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I liked the whole scene where Lau, Kiyi, and Ku-rahrah had to shelter from the monsoon. I remember reading somewhere that Eanli has about ten times the surface area of earth, and the shear strength of the weather seen here does a good job at showing the sorts of things that this world's atmosphere is capable of producing. The truce inside of the hollow was also a nice touch. The sensation of hostilities and predation during the monsoon helps clue the reader in to the true strength of the weather event, seeing as everyone seemingly teams up to weather it out together.
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I liked Kiyi’s conversation with the fire chief. It helps show us how ordinary people like him could get wrapped up in a moment like this while also revealing some of Biyan-Tanah’s backstory along with his true selfish motivations behind his cult.
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(Her fossa was... her fossa was…
Kiyi grabbed Lau's arm. "No. No, I can't... no, I need to be with you. I can't explain, but…”)

I love this sort of dynamic between predators and prey as well as the way it hints to a certain mindset. “You are my predator, and I am your prey”. I feel that Kiyi would have a much larger impact on Dasacian society if she didn't end up dying in the process of killing Biyan-Tanah. Maybe her name would also be carried on in a similar way that Lau’s was…
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(Kiyi's voice shuddered as she whispered, "Let's make a new promise. Find me again, in... another world. We'll be together again there."
Lau hesitated, unsure of what to say, but she found the words. "Yes. Yes, another world. Okay. Keep breathing, please."
Kiyi started to laugh, delirious. Lau's image grew indistinct. She couldn't see anymore. "I'll be a primate there. Still... tail-less.
Lau... you're so pretty.")

Such a tragic death, I truly feel for Kiyi and Lau at this moment. The whole “I'll still be a tailless primate” thing along with the weird way the Epelouge and opening text are presented seems to imply some sort of reincarnation for Kiyi as a human at some point. Is the Elena in the confusingly worded epilogue and prologue the same one we see in Hunting Paradise?

That would make too much sense as the personalities of the two couldn't be any more different. The main difference being that Elena was very power hungry while Kiyi was kind.

Sorry if this question didn't make any sense, the ending and brief opening statements were very confusing to me.

There are two theories I have about what is actually going on here.

One, Elena is the reincarnation of Kiyi and Kelriot is the reincarnation of Lau. The two finding each other again on another world (Earth).

Or the second option, which I think makes a lot more sense despite all the weird language in the epilogue and prologue, is that this story is essentially being told to Elena by Kelriot as a way to share her people's history with her.

I really hope that option one isn't true because it would be really heartbreaking for Kiyi 2.0 to be born on a world just as cruel as Eanli (the predators still run things after all) while also getting literally ENSLAVED by what would be Lau 2.0

Sorry for showing my personal feelings there, I never really got too into the Hunting Paradise series as enslavement is a big nope for me. It is very well written dont get me wrong, It just isn't really for me. Even if you treat them well, owning people is just a big nope for me.
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Sorry for the giant rambely comment, and especially that last section. Feel free to take as long as you need to either answer or not answer my questions here. All my questions and comments aside, I really did enjoy this story of yours. You did a wonderful job writing this ObsidianSnake!

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 10 months ago Report

Thanks for all this thoughtful comment, as well as the others. I'm delighted that you're enjoying these!

I'm trying to avoid too much commentary in my responses, as I sometimes feel like those kinds of responses can come off as instructing people how to feel about the story, and quashing their own ideas. Who is to say that other peoples' interpretations aren't correct? Even if somebody's reading isn't aligned with my intention, that doesn't mean that reading isn't valid. Anyway, I don't want to ruin somebody else's fun.

That said, it's also fun to talk. And I don't want to leave anybody hanging. So, as compromise, please forgive me if I'm occasionally vague in my responses. :)

On Lau's vigilance: it's a complicated hang-up. She is multi-faceted, a primordial philosopher that serves as a progenitor for well-defined behavioral codas, and a stickler for adherence to those codas. Additionally, she's got some hang-ups, and trauma. Furthermore, this is her terms with a pachylemur, a primate, with some natural instincts relating to a natural predator.

And what's a love story without drama and resistance, anyway? :)

------------------------------ (I copied and pasted this break)

On Lau and Kiyi's crafting love-language: Somebody on BlueSky observed that we have examples of the ancient garments in the form of carefully preserved things (royal finery, for example) and things made of metal. If it decomposes, we barely know of it.

As a result, we tend to be surprised by the rare finds of preserved tools and wear. Like, mummified remains wearing a jacket and pants that are TIGHT, total drip from 6,000 B.C.E.. I remember when an archeologist showed me a blade from a site in Alaska, dated about 1500 years ago. Supposedly, when they found the knife, the edge was still deadly sharp. The dig lead cut his hand open testing the blade on his own hand (oh my god, why would you do that?) so the quality was self-evident, but I'm a superficial bitch because I was into the carvings on the handle. It was made of bone, forgot which type, but it had little animal figures etched in, some of which were still visible.

Anyway, making things for somebody else, even as something like food, indicates that you're thinking of them.

...I think Kiyi would hate crafting systems from video games. She would say that you can make anything you want out of anything, but how good it is at the purpose depends on the materials. Additionally, how time isn't factored into those systems. Time is an important factor in projects! Time is important.

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On the pelican and her perspective on the Kiyi/Lau dynamic: I think there's some constructive envy there, too. That sea-bird does form a meaningful mutual bond with a community of her own, and observing Kiyi was opening her inner eyes to new possibilities. Kiyi and Lau did that kind of thing for a lot of people.

Kiyi has her own ideals and social philosophies, too, it's just hidden under the stormy disposition and hurt.

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On organized mass-conflict between prey and predator factions: I imagine there's a lot of that in Eanli history. It's never as simple as pred v. prey, though, because of the reality of social structures.

For example, in Verria, there's some tensions between prey groups. It's not harmony at all! Large grazers/browsers don't have immediate cause to ally with their tiny counterparts (the "squeaks"). In fact, in a technologically developed and rigid land-use society, the great hooved ones have serious grievance with animals like mice, as technology disproportionately increases the agency and potency of little creatures. And that's the basic level of inter-prey conflict!

That said, organized conflicts between prey organizations and groups against predator-controlled hegemonies and individuals do occur on Verria. In many cases, the prey do achieve their goals, or mutually beneficial terms are agreed upon.

Eanlian predators aren't invincible, and they are people. However, it's not a good idea to punch a tiger. If your plan involves that, it's not a good plan.

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On Aulendia: It closely resembles France, yes. Aulendian society believes in democratic principles, in theory; bear in mind that all predators are as lords in that section of the world, as far as prey are concerned. The bordered Paxhian states have histories that overlap and interweave with each other like a tapestry that they resemble.

Whether they like it or not, the Aphernian isles are involved. They're not as distant as they makes themselves out to be. In fact, Aphernia and Aulendia are basically like siblings, in a blue-oni red-oni kind of way -- different as they are, both are still oni.

Behind the curtain, Aphernia is a shameless rephrasing of the continuous setting from several stories from Randomness, and I'm not going to hide that at all, because those stories are CLASSICS. They were one of the pallets with which I painted Eanli. If the milder heartbreak found in some of my Eanli stories give the reader sting, I would caution on the source -- those are full dose, baby. But if you need the stronger stuff, you know where to go now. And it's all still as pure as the day they were written.

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On Yyudo: Behind the curtain, part of portraying and highlighting Yyudo was to set up this story. I picked up and abandoned KatPO multiple times. Most of the ideas were made concurrently with Paradise.

But also, I like places. I'm big on locales. Real ones, too. They really are like characters to me. They have moods, personalities, they develop, and they can even die.

I wonder, on the hill where the Elder Tree once was, what would be found there, when Kelriot was at the academy? Did Kelriot stop there, and not feel, but experience the shadow of feeling, halt and look out, suddenly aware of herself and the place where she was at? Was there buildings, a green-belt, or a plaza? Perhaps nature and civic projects obliterated it so thoroughly, that it's entirely gone, utterly unrecognizable in any way, lost to urban marginalia and arterial structures and such.

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On character heights: Kiyi's species are fairly similar in upright height to humans. Kiyi's smaller than average, but Lau is kind of a pitiful specimen, too. Lau is about 1.33x taller than Kiyi, at full upright heights.

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On Eanlian predators' nature: The feeling and instincts they have, and how it drives them to behave, is central a conceit to all of these stories. Judged as humans, they appear monstrous, and I don't fault anyone for assessing them as such. That fear and revulsion is rooted in self-protection. However, there is more to Lau, and all the other Eanlian predators, as they are just that: ecological predators, as highly evolved as their prey. They are a state of being, just as their prey are in a state of being.

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On not writing out sex: Yeah, the relationships are important, as are the complexities of them, but they don't always do something. Plus, it wouldn't be THAT interesting.

I'm glad I didn't get flack for the relationship that Ku-rahrah and Kiyi have. Somebody can easily present it in bad faith. For the record: no, it isn't a good one. For anybody reading this in good faith feels that Ku-rahrah's relationship with Kiyi has problematic elements -- I would agree. I'm not presenting it as a model. At the same time, it's too complex to label the relationship as simply bad or good. They're surviving in a hostile and uncertain world together... up until they didn't, but they did for a long while. I believe we're all like that, too.

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On the fire-chief: It's maybe too sub-textual, but he's Kiyi's family, too, a blood-relative. She really didn't want to face that, and the implications, of what could have been, and who she is.

------------------------------ (Heeeey, so, just to let everyone know, that last break received a formal demerit for breaking regulation, but the first one didn't, so things are pretty bad in the break room right now, they're talking a strike, so this might be the last section break for a while, until we work it out with the bosses, sorry about that)

On the meta-level involving Elena: I assumed that the framing of this story would be a popular topic, though it turns out to be less of a matter of interest than I thought.

I'll be honest here for a minute...

I'm not going to tell anyone what to think about it, or the metaphysical elements of the other Eanlian stories. You can take them as literal, direct, symbolic, or hypothetical as you desire. I try and make them work on multiple levels. How competently am I able to achieve that? (MASSIVE SHRUG)

There are many tragic elements to the situation with Elena and Kelriot. Assuming the a connection between the stories make both even more tragic, with some additional layers. A cozy coffeeshop AU it is not.

...Aside from that one cozy coffeeshop. Okay, that is there. Life isn't all crying, drama, and car chases.

Even then, I hope this story stands fine on its own. I want them all to do that. I guess, what I do in terms of my writing, is like a bakery. Sometimes, it's a multi-layered grand tiramisu with original artwork in the chocolate on top. But I also make little wads of fried dough dunked in way too much chocolate. I'm just messing around, really. Everything I do here is an experiment, and the results are always inconclusive.

It still comes as a relief that sometimes people enjoy it. That does help with some of the burn-out.

Anyway, I know my answers aren't perfect here, but you can understand why. Once again, thanks for the comment!

[ Reply ]

Posted by Furryvoreonly 10 months ago Report

(Whether they like it or not, the Aphernian isles are involved. They're not as distant as they makes themselves out to be. In fact, Aphernia and Aulendia are basically like siblings,)

Shoot, I forgot about Aphrenia! For some reason I thought that Aulendia was the name of the continent. Come to think of it, I actually just realised why the slavery in "Hunting Paradise kinda unnerved me in a new and unique way. It's not that it is slavery, it's that it is truly inescapable. Given the futuristic tech, running away would be nigh impossible and even death couldn't save you from your bondage as you would just reform in a machine to do it all over again.

I think that a story set in Aulendia or Aphrenia (what is their continent called?) would be a great idea. Maybe It could be about Dame LeFeure form "The Education of Oseri Rivers". I really liked her in that story, although I may be biased seeing as I have a particular fondness for vixen predators. Her personality was great along with her cool rapier that she used in the street fight. I think a story about her could be used as a great way to flesh out her homeland wile also contrasting the culture of where she was born to her current home in Veria.

And to add onto that she didn't participate in the horrible events of "Our Tears in Daylight", or at least we didn't see her...

She doesn't seem like the type of person to betray society's trust like that.

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(I saw a young eanlian pred sneeze so hard they scared themselves so I don't think they're that scary)

Awww, that's a really cute visual. When I was talking about them "being scary" I meant it as the way most humans / prey would see them. I don't personally think they are monsters or that they are inherently scary (they can be though if they want to be). I personally find mammalian predators to be beautiful in their own strange predatory way (Im biased lol). I'll admit that if earth were to get invaded by a bunch of predatory fox anthros bent on world conquest, ... I'd be a colaperator.

I for one welcome our new foxy overlords. subjugation is a small price to pay for fluffy cuddles :)

-----(This break is named Bort. Please be nice to Bort, he tries his best.)

Thanks for responding to my crazy long comment. I hope you have a nice day :)

[ Reply ]

Posted by ObsidianSnake 10 months ago Report

Paxhe isn't the name of the continent, as it's part of a compound super-continent, but the region is known as Paxhe. The name comes from the empire that once held dominion over it. That empire collapsed before they could truly take Aphernia, though there was definite impacts.

Paxhe itself is a fairly well-developed union of states in modern days. A region of remarkable contrasts, pastoral elements of life share a horizon with the extreme edges of modernity.

I do have one story in Aulendia: Miss Four. It's offers a slanted and specific point of view, but some of the character of life comes through.


On future bondage: Yes, you are noticing something important there. There's a matter within Lagous, the multi-modal language developed by Eanlian linguists to enable semi-universal academic communication. In Lagous, there's no specific term for self-destruction of the terminal variety. There's several ways to say it, but one has to stitch it together with multiple terms. Furthermore, content guidelines within the prey habitats severely inhibit self-destruction as a topic, so at least within the prey habitats, deliberate self-destruction has few cultural attachments. This leads to some eccentric behaviors regarding predators and hunting hours. That said, ideation still occurs, it's just harder to talk about.


Regarding the Dame: Yes, she is actually an intriguing character. I feel like I don't know enough about music to properly execute her viewpoint, though.


Regarding the animal charisma of Eanlian predators: I feel like I walk a balance in the Admission stories on that. From the human perspective, especially one with little experience with encountering much of any non-human animals, there's an initial jolt of adrenaline at seeing the Eanlians, but also a lingering fascination at their form and movements. They leave people with feelings of awe and dread. I feel like that's fairly realistic, but I also don't want to over-state it, either.

[ Reply ]

Posted by Furryvoreonly 10 months ago Report

Wow, that stuff about the way Lagous works is pretty interesting. That's some serious newspeak level stuff right there if they just straight up don't have a word for suicide because they removed it.

It's a shame that you don't think you know enough about music to properly portray LeFeure in a story. Do you have any friends that are knowledgeable in music? They might be willing to lend a hand (or paw) to help you out with the musical side of things.

[ Reply ]