Posted by LavenderLapine 4 years ago Report

I like this a lot.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 4 years ago Report

Thanks!
The Quoqelmi Daily Report brings you the stories you need to hear from people you trust

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Posted by Entirely_Logical 4 years ago Report

This is certainly an interesting way to deal with vagrancy in a world where the consequences of death have been minimized, though it brings up an interesting conundrum; what happens when a homeless prey ends up in the possession of a predator for whom keeping them is beyond their means? Particularly in Verria, it isn't as though all of the predators society are well enough off to care for two or three people on just their own income.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 4 years ago Report

I feel like answering in depth might ruin something, so I'll keep it brief: They're generally worth the relatively low price of upkeep in terms of an investment. Even if they don't want them, they can sell them, as per the rules of hunting hours. Even little Iz would go for a good chunk of dosh to the right buyer.

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Posted by FirstOf71st 3 years ago Report

Well, this certainly was an interesting perspective to learn about an underground para-militaristic Ealian spiritual cult. I want to say I was eager to learn more about them (particularly if the leader was inspired by "old human religious stuff"), but the torrent of confusing emotions Izino was going through was also captivating. At the risk of spoilers, here was my favorite line.

"Somebody that _ate people_ was more loved than he was."

Great stuff, great stuff.

I don't know if this is a good place to ask this, but it was mentioned rats are omnivores, and some may eat other prey. The entire hunting hours concept and class system of predator and prey only seems operable if there's a strict boundary between them. But there doesn't seem to be anything preventing one predator from eating another, in principle, so what ultimately designates the hunter and hunted?

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

Thanks, glad you enjoyed!

As for why predators aren't eating each other, they could, in about the same way that humans can eat each other. The simplest way I can put it is that obligate carnivores, the hunting predators, committed to compassion and mutual understanding for one another. That's been layered with many generations.

As for what's dividing the species the way they are - it's based upon need.

I'm aware these terse answers don't fully answer the question you're asking. It's a good one but the answers are complicated long. Besides, it's more interesting if I let everyone figure out the rest on their own.

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Posted by TestAccountPleaseIgnore 3 years ago Report

So, you say that this is "based off of need". I have a question for you, in that regard: what about grasshopper mice?

Grasshopper mice in real life are, as far as I can tell, even more carnivorous - in terms of how much animal-based protein they eat - than a bear, a species that has already been established as a predator in your setting. I feel that this covers the "need" bit. Moreover, they're incredibly aggressive, and they'll attempt to kill/eat things as large as they are, and sometimes larger - they're basically stoats in an even smaller package. Hell, they're partially immune to neurotoxins, because the scorpions they eat part-time sting them constantly.

Now, consider how this might work in your setting.

They look like a normal mouse.

They likely act like a normal mouse, at least in terms of behavioral tics, body language, and the like.

They might be like a weird, mute friend to a bunch of normal mice they hang out around; they act just like other mice, except they don't speak (the whole "voice reverberating" thing Eanli predators have would be an instant giveaway/RUN AWAY! signal). Maybe, in later settings, they can pretend that they were refabricated without vocal cords, and, in earlier settings, they can just claim (via sign language) that they were traumatized as a child. After all, who'd believe that the mouse eats other mice?

Provided that they don't talk, nobody is going to find out; hell, their skull structure is similar enough to a normal mouse's that even if someone forced them to open their mouth to check for pointy, predatory teeth, they wouldn't be given away.

But then, you know, you're some tiny mouse, trying to hide late at night in Verria, and there's this other, somewhat larger mouse that lets you into their house - a good Samaritan - and they go through the normal process of locking their doors behind you, herding you into an inner room, getting you a glass of water, et cetera, and you think you're safe for the night...

...and then you hear their voice, and you realize that you're never going to leave.

Of course, this is your setting - you do you - but I just figured that I should float the idea to you, because an Eanli predator that's almost 100% (other than the voice) biologically disguised as a prey species is something I thought you'd find interesting. It lets you write so many interesting things.

Also, what about pandas?

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

I think about these sorts of thins often, in terms of setting. It's funny that you bring up specifically that species. Here's a cleaned-up regional Verrian tale from my notes, which is based upon a real one, How The Wolf Mouse Came to Be.

How The Wolf Mouse Came to Be.

Long ago, there was a village of mouse in dark-earth clay burrows in the shade of a great red rock. Early one day, _REDACTED_

So, I was originally thinking of writing out that legend as a narrative myth, framed as a folk-tale, but I thought it would confuse people. I guess it's bonus content for anybody scrolling through comments in the future, now.

Hey. Future me here. I have changed my mind! I think I WILL present this as part of a collection of folk-tale-style stories, magic and myth, just-so, and all that stuff. This one is actually perfect for that, and it's going in.

Anyway, as past me was saying...

I presumed that grasshopper mice would just be predators in the usual sense, accepted by larger predators as such, although it would be complicated, as there aren't many species like them. The predator "family" isn't exclusive to the mammal carnivorans, but includes birds of prey, sharks, lots of reptiles, and the like. The idea of them intentionally surprising prey with their nature is really dramatic and thrilling, though!

Yeah, and what about pandas? What about pandas, indeed. How 'bout them pandas, eh? Now, on Eanli, pandas are still pandas, but Eanlian. If you were to ask them how they're doing, they'd probably respond that they're doing okay.

It's also interesting you brought up bears. Most species of bears aren't effective terrestrial hunters, with a notable exception of the polar bear. Grizzly bears spend most of their time foraging, with varied diets, but they nuts for salmon, though. I can't imagine grizzlies without thinking of salmon. They are obligate carnivores, but they're quite omnivorous, like most fox species.

Look: I have to keep some cards in my metaphorical hand here. I could put everything about the setting on a public-facing wiki, but that would be the most boring thing ever. The setting is part of the vehicle for the stories, not the other way around! I still want to hold onto certain props and set-pieces for later in the game/play.

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Posted by TestAccountPleaseIgnore 3 years ago Report

The predator "family" isn't exclusive to the mammal carnivorans, but includes birds of prey, sharks, lots of reptiles, and the like.

So, like Beastars, then, except not.

Man, that setting is fucked up.

Look: I have to keep some cards in my metaphorical hand here...I still want to hold onto certain props and set-pieces for later in the game/play.

This is basically my problem: not condensing everything into one story. It's very, very hard to write things down and then just leave them there for later. Drives you mad.

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Posted by VampireBunny 3 years ago Report

I'm incredibly confused. I get that it's an immoral protagonist for the sexual appeal and that is hot, but why are isolated protective communities phrased as worse than than the slavery they are trying to protect themselves from?
This feels like it slowly stopped being a fetish piece and became some kind of vent piece about isolationist reserves like some of tribal laws out there. At least that's all I can think of, because that part really confuses me.
If it were me, I would have written it where the slave expresses the oppressiveness of living in such a tribe to their master, and that appeals to morality that they weren't sure they had. Which would make it a very justified, yet hypocritical and mentally confusing journey and character growth for the master.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

Thank you so much for this response! YES! This is exactly the kind of feedback that I'm always eager for.

I see that this had some problems in communicating intention. I tend to do more roiling, long-form pieces focused more on domination and submission, with society/cultural structures being a part of that. This story had a hard opening, focused on the phyisciality of predator and prey, backing out to show them in terms of people in society, which is what the rest of the story was about. I see now that I may have been making another promise there, maybe one I didn't keep...? I can see how somebody could see that opening as a suggestion that it's more a straight-forward vore fic from the opening, and then it gets weird. Whoops! I count that as a pretty serious flaw with the story now.

It seems from your comment that the intentions and character of the cult wasn't very clear. Dacuna's cult wasn't intended to protect themselves from hunting hours predation. In fact, it wasn't about protection at all, but the opposite: it was about elevating a single individual and his family over the rest of civil society. Dacuna was using smaller species to literally breed a base of power. The reason that Izino was discarded was because a) he lacked the wherewithal to understand why he can't make friends outside of the cult b) he was making friends with somebody that cared about him outside of the cult c) he had a developmental disability that made him less favorable for armed training. The cult, as an extension of Dacuna himself, was corrupting, malevolent, and machiavelian. Not one bit of that is Izino's fault, though.

Erinees is a deeply angry woman, and over the course of the story, she tempers it with understanding. Eventually, she reaches a place of affection, and even love. She achieves vengeance against the group that wronged her mouse... a turn which is fraught with irony. The story that you were describing is actually similar to the one here.

Again, thanks for the comment. It's good to know where and exactly how I can improve!

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Posted by VampireBunny 3 years ago Report

I see what you mean. But, I have to disagree. Everything in a story is relative, it's unavoidable. There's a reason why readers loved Robin Hood, even though in real life, they would despise being robbed by a thief like him. It's because in his story, the Sheriff of Nottingham and the rest of the elites are purposely taxing people into poverty, so that they can be tyrants. Batman would be viewed much less as a hero and more of a dangerous violent thug if he were up against normal criminals and not characters like the Joker.

The best and closest example to this work I can think of is Tuco Salamanca from the Breaking Bad series. He's a violent murderer, and a cartel drug lord. But then these two hipster guys try to scam and con his grandmother by pretending she hit them with her car, so they are harassing and insulting her to scare her into paying them. Obviously Tuco doesn't take this well and tortures and tries to kill them.

https://youtu.be/ob9QOxocDnM

But the important part about what I mean is that I never felt like the show was using these scammers as a way to make Tuco look better, it makes him look worse and way more interesting. The fact that I can relate to his character wanting to protect someone from con artists and bullies completely contrasts with the fact He commits a much more offensive sin in the eyes of most viewers, and that makes him look like a true psychopath. This is a set up for the protagonist, Saul, to have to struggle to use his lawyer skills to reason with Tuco and try to save the scammers lives.

I read another one of your stories and I feel the same sentiment I did hear about the antagonist
I understood that the leader of the group was machiavellian, but that makes the corrupt cult leader look like the Robin Hood. A sinner who's bad deeds are much tamer and less offensive to the average reader than the other characters around them, especially when you show that it's the government that enforces slavery and has control over multiple planets, it feels like you're setting up for the people who would want to overthrow such a regime to be the heroes.

Another aspect of characters is what they internally think. There are many great villains that belive that they are doing what they do for "the greater good" My favorite might be Dr. Breen in Half-Life 2, who commands the cruelest and most tyrannical regime humanity has ever suffered through, but he does it so that he can try to convince the alien master races to keep humanity alive, and allow us to join their empire instead of being hunted to extinction.

Erinees doesn't try to justify slavery, not even by pretending she needs it to pick cotton or build a pyramid, but the reader can obviously assume that many people in the antagonistic faction would belive that they are doing something for a "greater good" given their surroundings. And I would disagree that that could be called love considering it's impossible to argue that it's a consensual relationship, it's essentially gaslighting a slave into having Stockholm syndrome.

People really like bad guys, they love reading books, seeing movies, playing games, etc where they are following a villain as a protagonist and living vicariously through the immorality. This has always been popular, the Joker movie proved that way more. but here it feels like we are following the Sheriff of Nottingham, talking about how horrible stealing is while he starves people to death, like Tuco, this would make the character seem crazy and unaware of their actions. Readers wanting to enjoy a heroic protagonist, and readers wanting to enjoy an immoral and evil protagonist are left confused at the unaddressed hypocrisy.
Personally, that's why I'm not a fan of your characters, and didn't even realize it was supposed to be taken seriously until half way through.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

I get what you're saying here, and I guess my central conceit of the predators in the setting, their personal position in relation to the world and their prey, and their psychology, is something a lot of people don't understand. Specifically, they're very intelligent creatures that have evolved to hunt and consume fellow sapient beings. The stoat in this story is a stoat, when you get down to it. If she's evil because of that, it's a naturally occurring evil. Consider this: why is their society allowing her to keep financially disadvantaged prey? You're raising some very interesting discussion points on the themes of good and evil, but this story spends a lot of time exploring themes beyond that. To be fair, Izino does directly call Erinees evil a few times, but that was born from a simplistic viewpoint, one based upon his immediate perspective -- still valid, though!

Something that I'm learning here is that there's an expectation built into the very basis on which people are engaging with these stories that I wasn't ready for: that there's clear and defined Good Guys and Bad Guys. To be fair here, I do often write characters that are mostly good people and others that are completely awful. At the same time, predators and prey are supposed to be within their own contexts, yeah? For example, Riot the greater fossa is arguably quite good, or at least as good as she knows how to be and as good as her world will let her be, considering that she's a man-eating inter-dimensional alien from our perspective. In rigid terms of Good and Evil, then, all these characters are Evil. They all have massive Bad Place points because they're working to perpetuate a societies that have Bad Things in it. They would all say that it's much better than the world that could have existed instead. Erinees becomes a somewhat scary mom for Izino by the end of this, rather than continuing to treat him like cached food.

I don't know how to square an expectation of rigid Good and Evil with what I want to write. When it comes to philosophy, it's not something I'm interested in exploring, to be honest. I'm not the right person for that.

A small aside here! Please don't take any of this as me firing back, but there's something odd in how you've read this story and I'm really caught up on it: you see Dacuna Meshedi as being heroic here, or possibly read that way, and I'm stunned by that. They literally threw a child to the wolves because of shortcomings that he can't control. Izino was born to serve the material purposes of that power structure, as if he were an object. That seems like it's hard to overlook. It's the event that set the rest of the plot in motion.

Anyway, I do appreciate the perspective. There's other commenters that mention bizarre sense of morality in these stories, and I think you've done a great job of examining and explaining what's going on there. I think I understand their viewpoint a bit better now. You have my sincere gratitude for that!

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Posted by VampireBunny 3 years ago Report

I think I might have failed to explain myself good enough, you're talking about good and evil as if it's black and white, but the point of my comment was to say good and evil is relative in a story. My examples were characters that do evil things, like running a drug cartel, robbing people, being a dictator for a totalitarian regime, but it's the setting around those characters that makes the character's moralities what they are. Obviously, the Breaking Bad character who kills people and traffics meth is doing something much less evil than the Half-Life character who is doing what Stalin did but 1000 times worse. However, Tuco's contradictory morality makes him appear insane, and Breen's ideal to avoid Humanity's extinction makes him appear somehow sympathetic despite his sin being way worse.

"but there's something odd in how you've read this story and I'm really caught up on it: you see Dacuna Meshedi as being heroic here, or possibly read that way, and I'm stunned by that. They literally threw a child to the wolves because of shortcomings that he can't control. Izino was born to serve the material purposes of that power structure, as if he were an object. That seems like it's hard to overlook. It's the event that set the rest of the plot in motion."

I'm saying that if you write a story set in a government that enslaves people, and then make a character that is against that government, the majority of readers are going to by default view that character that way. Especially since his worst sin, treating one of the protagonists like an object, is something that everyone in the setting is guilty of as well.

You could make your antagonist someone who, let's say for the sake of argument, sexually harasses people. But if you have him set in the middle of George Orwell's 1984 and have him fight against INGSOC, readers aren't going to be convinced Oceania is good for fighting against a pervert because the severity of their offenses (in the eyes of an average reader) is very different.

Bad guy vs. Bad guy stories are fun, maybe even the best honestly. My favorite stories ever are about grey morality. But the story is biased extremely towards one grey compared to the other, and I think most people in real life would consider slavery to be a worse violation of human rights than scientology, so it feels backwards.

Thanks for responding to me though.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

Thanks for going into this level of detail as I try to follow what you're saying. At this point, I think I see the problem:
1. Dacuna Meshedi and his followers aren't easy to understand within the text as presented, and it's leading them to be more relatable than intended. (Solution: I should have left up less to subtext.)
2. Subsequently, because Meshedi appears to be against the status quo, it also creates the illusion that he's also against the terms of Izino's plight, which the government appears to be complacent in.

...Of course what's really going on is that you're expressing vampire solidarity with Dacuna! (jk lol)

This criticism is actually very useful because I had a future story planned centering on Dr. Meshedi. I don't want to make the similar mistakes in future stories featuring the same character.

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Posted by VampireBunny 3 years ago Report

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. The only main proof the reader gets that his intentions are worse than the other characters is that he acts like an bully on the phone call.
I'm happily surprised we were able to talk and both understand each other better. I don't see that happen much anymore.

I struggle with my prejudices against sunlight loving raisins but I promise that's not affecting me here. lol.

My only other criticism would be that Erinee never really apologized to Izino after being so abusive to him, her methods were more like that of a manipulator than a mediator. I really like the idea of a "realist" slave owner who tells it like it is and is able to actually convince their victims that despite the situation they are luckier to be owned by them than the unjust sadists out there that go completely unchecked. I would have liked to have seen her change his mind by besting him in a debate with that logic, rather than torturing him until he gives up resistance. I really admire a character that can be both clever with their words and also honest at the same time.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

Re: Izino and Erinees relationship
That would be interesting! However, I wanted to have a combination of a more volatile, meaner domme responding to a character that is initially poorly equipped to handle that. That was something I hadn't done yet.

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Posted by VampireBunny 3 years ago Report

I see now. That makes sense as for making a character distinct and interesting compared to others. But as a first time viewer it confused me due to how it wrapped up without addressing that just because of the other thing.

Anyway, thanks for your time have a great day. I write too but I don't share it outside of a circle in real life, since it's on paper. At first my writing was supposed to be vore themed and about laws and predation but then I got a bunch of other ideas and that quickly faded into the background as it turned into something wildly different. But that's just how writing always is, you don't always need that story board like an animator would, so things change quicker.

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