Posted by Animagra 5 years ago Report

Very well written.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 5 years ago Report

Thank you! Pleasure to entertain.

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Posted by TestAccountPleaseIgnore 3 years ago Report

Humans are very good at cognitive dissonance, aren't they? It's just that, in this human's case, it led to him actually stumbling onto the right conclusion - not because he had the intelligence to do so, because someone raised to be intelligent would ask too many questions (he's knowledgable and helpful, not intelligent, those are two importantly different things), but because he was performing a very human thing in grasping for straws to justify his own existence and the tripe he was fed in the prey school, and just so happened to pull the right straw.

In a way, the idea of trained prey like him seems like an extension of that discussion we had in the Hunting Paradise comments section regarding the prey-rights idea: I get the feeling that mass-produced individuals like him are designed to take some of the load off of free prey. In the long run, I can see the whole "you can purchase who you want out of the habitat if you do it on the down-low" thing getting banned or pared down and replaced with "take one of these instead, they're just as smart and much more obedient".

I also love how he's nameless. It's sort of like when a writer calls the main character "Anon", so that you can self-insert into the story...except this guy really IS anonymous, and most readers probably don't want to be him. I prefer MY brand of sanity, not his, thank you very much...

This aside, do you realize how terrifying something like...whatever his name is going to be, would be as some kind of infiltrator designed to break up subversive prey groups? Completely loyal to whoever sent him, easy to to retrain for that purpose, and probably very, very good at imitating a normal human, given how much of - frankly speaking - a fanatic you could make someone like this into. Imagine doing it with non-humans, they'd have the Verrian government taken over within a year.

Holy shit, they already have, haven't they? It's why the prey have been loosing power, isn't it? Is this one of those subtle little background implications that you work into things, or am I reading too much into it and going insane?

Anyway, of course, that lasts up until there are predators knocking on the door, in which case they drop all previous friendships/relationships with the group they're infiltrating and let them in, partially out of a sense of duty to the predators and partially out of a sense of spite towards because "you're not listening to the adults, you need to be punished". A tattle-tale, really, except, instead of them getting you sent to sit in the corner, you get sent to have your vocal cords removed, or worse, depending on which predator you pissed off.

Still can't shake how utterly horrible the vocal-cord punishment is, actually, but that's for a different comment.

I know that the predators in your stories as of right now likely wouldn't make someone into that, but, I, for one, am 100% interested in the concept - as usual, you're an inspiration. It's an interesting twist on the sort of betrayal that you normally would see in one of BizarreBlue's works; instead of a predator doing it, it's prey, and instead of it being a spur-of-the-moment kind of thing where they suddenly decide that you're food, they never actually cared about you in the first place - only about the folks they're taking marching orders from. The ultimate sleeper agent, motivated not by hatred or bigotry or militarism but by loyalty to this weird quasi-parental, quasi-familial, quasi-romantic figure, and your fuckin' awesome idea makes it possible for me to write this one, so thanks.

Also, I have one - just one - question, which I'm begging you to answer for the sake of my understanding this story better, and I swear I won't ask more related to this particular story: are trained prey like this raised from birth, or are they made out of people like Eels that have been...rewired? Because it was mentioned that Eels was being sent somewhere to get better, and we know the Eanli predator definition of "better"...

Lastly, thanks for the help with italicization. I can be dramatic now, provided that I don't botch it while writing the comment. Still new to this.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

I get the feeling that mass-produced individuals like him are designed to take some of the load off of free prey.
To the contrary, they're quite boutique! Additionally, the entire concept is cribbed from Randomness's The Last Dance, which was one of the key works that fertilized the ground for the Eanli setting to develop within. I will warn you: that story is a good one, but it's a sad one. And I mean, it is GOOD, but it also sad.

Anyway, they're schools, not farms. If you want one of the perfect student's classmates, oh-ho-hoooo boy you better have some mad dosh, we ain't talking walkin' around money, no sir, I mean FAT STACKS, and the only way to get them is through auction.

This aside, do you realize how terrifying something like...whatever his name is going to be, would be as some kind of infiltrator designed to break up subversive prey groups?
First, we'd need to teach him to stay in the same room as free prey without immediately excusing himself at extremely high speed... and then he'd probably wash his hands and freak out a little bit in the washroom. Wait, is it a free prey washroom? Oh, no, that means he'd have a smaller freak-out on top of the other freakout like an anxiety ziggurat!

It's why the prey have been loosing power, isn't it? Is this one of those subtle little background implications that you work into things, or am I reading too much into it and going insane?
That seems like a spy with some extra steps.

are trained prey like this raised from birth, or are they made out of people like Eels that have been...rewired?
They start only with the very best, so raised from birth.

Because it was mentioned that Eels was being sent somewhere to get better, and we know the Eanli predator definition of "better"...
Oh, Perci? Perci Lee needed therapy, by anybody's standards. She's still weird afterwards, awkward, but good enough company. She learns to bake. Pastries, mostly.

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Posted by TestAccountPleaseIgnore 3 years ago Report

To the contrary, they're quite boutique! Additionally, the entire concept is cribbed from Randomness's The Last Dance, which was one of the key works that fertilized the ground for the Eanli setting to develop within. I will warn you: that story is a good one, but it's a sad one. And I mean, it is GOOD, but it also sad.

Randomness's stuff for you. As you put it, it's like a bowl of candies. Theirs are all black licorice, though, except for that one recent one. Always someone gotta die.




Anyway, they're schools, not farms. If you want one of the perfect student's classmates, oh-ho-hoooo boy you better have some mad dosh, we ain't talking walkin' around money, no sir, I mean FAT STACKS, and the only way to get them is through auction.

So, Miss Four, but without the sociopathic human trafficking-esque bits. Hey, well, you know, it's like flooding the IRL elephant-tusk market with fake ivory. Better this program than the alternative. Compassion. Yay!



First, we'd need to teach him to stay in the same room as free prey without immediately excusing himself at extremely high speed... and then he'd probably wash his hands and freak out a little bit in the washroom. Wait, is it a free prey washroom? Oh, no, that means he'd have a smaller freak-out on top of the other freakout like an anxiety ziggurat!

This sounds like 1 part social anxiety, 1 part bigotry, 1 part having been raised in order to be near-completely incapable of functioning without a predator around, and 7 parts being a stuck-up pet. Basically, a designer poodle holding its nose up as it sees livestock walk by.There's a vivid mental image. Doesn't sound pleasant to be around for anyone that's not a predator, even if you don't know what they are - not because they're rude, but because they're vaguely creepy, twitchy, and look at you like you're some kind of low-class peasant that's about to club their head in with a brick.

Still, it seems like you could retool the schools to make very effective infiltrators if you could get them to think of themselves differently - say, a working dog-type thing, instead of a poodle-type thing. The human mind is fluid – it can be changed, reshaped, remade. Humans make great prey because of that, I imagine - they can fit into any role that's not "being a predator".



That seems like a spy with some extra steps.

Exactly, a bloody effective one, too.

I will note that this is not a yes or no answer, which, to be fair, is exactly how a predator would answer the question of "are you putting brainwashed trained prey sleeper agents in our government" even if they knew the answer.

Touche.



They start only with the very best, so raised from birth.

On the one hand, thank god they're not brainwashing people that aren't 100% blank slates. Can't destroy what ain't there.

On the other hand, I wonder where those babies are being sourced from.



Oh, Perci? Perci Lee needed therapy, by anybody's standards. She's still weird afterwards, awkward, but good enough company. She learns to bake. Pastries, mostly.

Again, define "therapy" in this context - especially because you mentioned "anybody's" standards.

This could mean "hey, she got better of her own volition and is now somewhat functional and happy despite having had a very damaged upbringing."

This could also mean "we erased half her memories, de-re-fabricated her vocal cords, taught her how to bake and be a domestic servant, and then put her on lease to some predator noble until she dies of old age".

Also, I was referring to the brother, the guy who, IIRC, had either one or both of his parents and a good chunk of his family die. The one that dented Matian's skull for the evulz, and who Kelriot then technically-sort-of-actually tortured by having Eliviza shut his mods off one-by-one.

Honestly, I wanted to see Riot and whatever-his-nickname-was (I sure think it was Eels) actually fight, and I thought that that was going to happen, based on the fact that, y'know, fighting and beating and dominating people is Kelriot's whole shtick. It would have been great for her to show him "see, even with the mods, I can beat your ass, and I don't need to be a bully about it like you do". She worked to be a killing machine (yes, I know, predator, but also, you know, warrior); he's just a traumatized thug who got it out of a bottle. Moreover, she doesn't really, from what I can tell, try to cause unnecessary pain, so the whole "letting your sociopathic friend taunt him and agonizingly shut down chunks of his body one-by-one while you sit back and watch" thing seemed a bit out of character when she could have just fought him and won without the torture. Or was it her temporarily overriding her training and personality because he beat up a, uh...friend, of hers, and she wanted payback?



Here I am, babbling again. It's great work. I think this is some of your best, actually; you make a conversation between a brainwashed meat robot and an interdimensional man-eating predator more emotionally charged than some bestsellers out there.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

Randomness's stuff for you. As you put it, it's like a bowl of candies. Theirs are all black licorice, though, except for that one recent one.
I fucking LOVE licorice

On the other hand, I wonder where those babies are being sourced from.
That's too big of a question to answer properly in a comment, but the professionals working in that sector aren't abducting free prey from the habitats, for multiple reasons.

Regarding things from Hunting Paradise:
I recall when I was at a panel about the production of the Lackadaisy Cats animated short, and somebody asked the cleanup animator about Hazbin Hotel (the animator in question is the creator of Hazbin Hotel). The animator shut down the question with an immediate "I'm sorry but we're only taking questions about anything but the panel topic right now", to paraphrase. It's becoming apparent that I might need to start doing that. I appreciate the continued interest, but when I write these stories, especially the shorts, I do so with the hope that they can stand on their own.

Anyway, it certainly sounds like you're developing an interesting set of concepts for your story. I didn't mean to drop this part of the thread! I didn't have anything to add, but I do want to back up and acknowledge that you got your own thing going on. Unsolicited advise: finish it! You can't let a draft fester, or it'll never get done, as the task becomes heavier the longer you delay, until you're in a situation where you have to either re-read your own draft or start over again. I'm spinning my own wheels on a draft that I've been working on since the end of the summer, due to a variety of reasons, and it's PAINFUL to try to "get back in the groove". Draft fast, and if you're more of somebody that builds dense outlines and then drafts, then try and pack that outline down ASAP!

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Posted by TestAccountPleaseIgnore 3 years ago Report

That's too big of a question to answer properly in a comment, but the professionals working in that sector aren't abducting free prey from the habitats, for multiple reasons.

Makes sense. I guess it's like Randomness's Prey Date, where they try to get two individual trained prey to hook up and then take their babies - after all, it's not like the trained prey care if you do that. They live to serve.



I recall when I was at a panel about the production of the Lackadaisy Cats animated short, and somebody asked the cleanup animator about Hazbin Hotel (the animator in question is the creator of Hazbin Hotel). The animator shut down the question with an immediate "I'm sorry but we're only taking questions about anything but the panel topic right now", to paraphrase. It's becoming apparent that I might need to start doing that. I appreciate the continued interest, but when I write these stories, especially the shorts, I do so with the hope that they can stand on their own.

It just feels like I'm drinking a pool through a straw, so I tried to add another straw. I'll stop.



Anyway, it certainly sounds like you're developing an interesting set of concepts for your story. I didn't mean to drop this part of the thread! I didn't have anything to add, but I do want to back up and acknowledge that you got your own thing going on. Unsolicited advise: finish it! You can't let a draft fester, or it'll never get done, as the task becomes heavier the longer you delay, until you're in a situation where you have to either re-read your own draft or start over again. I'm spinning my own wheels on a draft that I've been working on since the end of the summer, due to a variety of reasons, and it's PAINFUL to try to "get back in the groove". Draft fast, and if you're more of somebody that builds dense outlines and then drafts, then try and pack that outline down ASAP!



It's not quite that it's dense, it's that it's huge. In terms of scale, if not at all concept, it's similar to Hunting Paradise and all the various other works you've written using the same characters, except each individual component isn't stand-alone, meaning that, while I'm building up these three, four-ish stories at once, I constantly have to jump back and forth between them to ensure that they match up.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

It's not quite that it's dense, it's that it's huge. In terms of scale, if not at all concept, it's similar to Hunting Paradise and all the various other works you've written using the same characters, except each individual component isn't stand-alone, meaning that, while I'm building up these three, four-ish stories at once, I constantly have to jump back and forth between them to ensure that they match up.

Ah, I think I understand. Generally starting with smaller projects is easier, but I've felt motivation and some thrill in chasing more ambitious scopes myself. Honestly, I kind of choked on it; writing Hunting Paradise was downright painful compared to the other larger works. I very nearly failed. There was a major false-start of a draft, a re-write, and the revision of the final first draft was hell. I really should have started with some of the shorts instead. Then again, I learned a lot from that bumpy start. Maybe you'll have an easier time of it than I did! I hope so.

It seems to me that you're more likely to have an approach like mine in how you construct stories. There's two ends of the spectrum: explorer and architect. The explorer side contains those that draft as they go, and the architects start with detailed outlines. It's a spectrum, and the same person may take a different approach depending on the context, like somebody that builds tight outlines when working on a gritty sci-fi thriller but uses only loose collections of character and world notes while working on a fantasy adventure. Neither side of this spectrum is right or wrong, and in fact every real writer contain a bit of both. It seems that you're more on the architect side, with me. :) Do be aware that revision is going to be far more painful using that approach. Also, we can get caught in the notes, and sometimes drafting will grind to an absolute halt when you realize that, oh no, there was something that didn't make sense about the plot that wasn't visible from the notes. It then feels like you're going back and forth between the draft and notes as you try and fix the error in both place, and you have to schedule in some time to curl up into a ball and cry at that point, too. Meanwhile, somebody with the opposite approach just laughs, leaves a note at that point to fix the problem, and plunges back into more drafting -- they're going to be a doing a lot in the revision, anyway, they can mix it all up if need be, no big deal.

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Posted by TestAccountPleaseIgnore 3 years ago Report

Ah, I think I understand. Generally starting with smaller projects is easier, but I've felt motivation and some thrill in chasing more ambitious scopes myself. Honestly, I kind of choked on it; writing Hunting Paradise was downright painful compared to the other larger works. I very nearly failed. There was a major false-start of a draft, a re-write, and the revision of the final first draft was hell. I really should have started with some of the shorts instead. Then again, I learned a lot from that bumpy start. Maybe you'll have an easier time of it than I did! I hope so.

It seems to me that you're more likely to have an approach like mine in how you construct stories. There's two ends of the spectrum: explorer and architect. The explorer side contains those that draft as they go, and the architects start with detailed outlines. It's a spectrum, and the same person may take a different approach depending on the context, like somebody that builds tight outlines when working on a gritty sci-fi thriller but uses only loose collections of character and world notes while working on a fantasy adventure. Neither side of this spectrum is right or wrong, and in fact every real writer contain a bit of both. It seems that you're more on the architect side, with me. :) Do be aware that revision is going to be far more painful using that approach. Also, we can get caught in the notes, and sometimes drafting will grind to an absolute halt when you realize that, oh no, there was something that didn't make sense about the plot that wasn't visible from the notes. It then feels like you're going back and forth between the draft and notes as you try and fix the error in both place, and you have to schedule in some time to curl up into a ball and cry at that point, too. Meanwhile, somebody with the opposite approach just laughs, leaves a note at that point to fix the problem, and plunges back into more drafting -- they're going to be a doing a lot in the revision, anyway, they can mix it all up if need be, no big deal.

Ah. Yeah, I'd say that I'm more towards the architect side, but not entirely; I take a prompt - i.e. something set, that I'm not willing to change, and a group of related plot elements - and then develop it from there. Thing is, though, it's hard to build multiple prompts off of one another side-by-side, since even the architect approach can't detail everything in full, and you do have to do a little improv; I'm not concerned about it, though, I write for fun in my free time.

If I had to guess - not making assumptions here, just observing things about writing - your shorter stories such as How Apex Predators Make Friends and Fitting In seem to do tend more towards the "architect" side of things - the outlines being "what if Kelriot and friend went to adult restaurant" and "sleepover except with betrayal" - oversimplifications of them, yes, but there's a single concept they're based around. OTOH, the larger/longer ones such as Seven Days are still on the "architect" side of things, but given the number of different settings and characters that are encountered, they have to be more explored over time - you can't write out everything ahead of time, you have to let it evolve organically. Still both "architect", but the shorter ones are moreso.

Incidentally, you cited Octavia E. Butler as one of your inspirations. Are there others?

I'll give you one in exchange, preemptively: you should read Peter Watts. In terms of what you're interested in, Butler is more on the "parental-leaning dom" side of things, whereas Watts is more on the "interdimensional alien" and "predator psychology" side of things. Also, he found a way to explain vampires in a completely realistic and fully scientific sense, so there's that.

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Posted by ObsidianSnake 3 years ago Report

Incidentally, you cited Octavia E. Butler as one of your inspirations. Are there others?
In general literature, yes! Whenever I see something that strikes me as effective writing, I try and learn from it. I read more critically these days. I'm not trying to emulate anybody's style, though. I'd like to be able to tailor style to the tone, genre, and form of whatever I'm writing at the time.

For instance, in this one, I make the third person narration perform a lot of work. It's always over the shoulder of a character, but it injects large amounts of contexualizing information, like it's a wildlife documentary. It ends up feeling like another character in the room about halfway through. I don't typically do that, but when I was writing this, it felt like a way to balance the dialectic between Eufenris and the student.

I'm not familiar with Peter Watts, but I'll happily take the recommendation!

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Posted by alockwood1 2 years ago Report

Something to think on.

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